How Data-Driven Design Built Flu Season and horror season

Jason Hsieh (00:42)
Welcome back to another episode of Toy Business Unboxed podcast. Today we have Troy, the founder of SadStretch Games. He’s a data-driven board game designer with a background in data analysis and years of experience using tool like Excel, Power Query and SQLs. Troy really combined math and analytics to ensure his game is balanced and fun at the same time. From his first two games back in 2021 to his latest release in 2024.

He will be sharing his journey lesson learned and also strategy for other aspiring game designer and entrepreneur. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. So can we kind of go back to your kind of journey on how do you got started in game design and why? Is there like a story behind it?

Troy Rasmussen (01:17)
Thank you.

Yeah, there’s a story. Back before I created the first game, I had a friend that basically challenged me to do it. That’s kind of how that worked out. Yeah. And of course I’m like what theme? And you know, during 2020, 21 period, there was COVID was a theme. And basically from the moment that started, I’m like, wow, we could totally do like a

Jason Hsieh (01:33)
Okay.

Troy Rasmussen (01:47)
Take that card game that where you attack people and you make them get infected and that’s how they lose their hearts and how they get out of the game kind of thing. And literally sat down in thirty minutes, got an Excel spreadsheet out, wrote down all the card names, all the actions and everything, and had a practical playable game within about thirty minutes.

Jason Hsieh (02:07)
Well, that was quick.

Troy Rasmussen (02:08)
Yeah. Yeah. Now that we didn’t just stop there. Obviously we had to play it and make sure it worked. Sure. But and check the balance and everything. But yeah, that’s the first version of the game was done in about thirty minutes.

Jason Hsieh (02:19)
Okay. What is the name for the first game and how is the rule behind

Troy Rasmussen (02:24)
The first game is called Flu Season and the rules are is that everyone has five hearts, kind of like if you think about Legend of Zelda, how they have a heart meter. Five hearts and your goal is to make sure no one else has any hearts. And the way you do that is we have cards that have little viruses on them and flus and things like that, and you play those cards on them on other people, and then you can defend by playing a booster shot. Yeah. And then there’s a bunch of other cards like

Cards that make you throw your hand away and stuff like that. Make you skip a turn. You know, it’s pretty standard card play for that.

Jason Hsieh (02:55)
Okay, How long does it take from, obviously it takes 30 minutes to create the concept, but how long does it take you from that concept to actually like the product in hand?

Troy Rasmussen (03:04)
Well, the art was done in about six months. And then after that time it was just a matter of finding a manufacturer. I ended up finding through the process of looking for manufacturers. Yeah. Had someone that reached out to me that said, Hey, I can manufacture your stuff for you. So I’m like, All right, sure. Let’s go ahead and go to you and get a quote. And actually beating my quotes, which was a shock because I thought I had some pretty low quotes.

Jason Hsieh (03:29)
Okay.

Troy Rasmussen (03:29)
And so I went with him and he’s a really cool guy out of Utah. Okay. That I’ve met and personally multiple times since then. Yeah, so he he’s been a really good contact for me when it comes to game development and game creation.

Jason Hsieh (03:41)
So is your game manufacturer in the US or he just kind of connecting you to his contact?

Troy Rasmussen (03:47)
He’s the go between. He knows the people in all the manufacturing places and in the places in China and stuff like that.

Jason Hsieh (03:52)
Okay, okay. It’s more like a agent kind of. Okay, okay. Got it.

Troy Rasmussen (03:56)
Yeah, he’s more logistics than he is actually doing the manufacturing. But he also coordinates with the people where he’s doing the manufacturing, like our games were made in China. So he coordinated with those people to get the games to us. Yeah. And he handled the logistics from by the by the time we went through custom to get to me here.

Jason Hsieh (04:00)
I see.

Okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. Yeah.

Troy Rasmussen (04:17)
And

He’s done that for all three games that we’ve made.

Jason Hsieh (04:20)
Okay, okay, okay. Yes.

Troy Rasmussen (04:22)
At

The same time that I made flu season, we also made a dice game. ‘Cause we were doing some testing of the games and one of the people playing was really bored. And they’re like why don’t you like it? and they said, Well, it’s too slow. So I’m like, Well, what if I came up with a fast dice version? And so and that’s where the dice version of the game came out is I started thinking like, Well, can I come up with a dice game? And I’m like, Well, I already have a game. Yeah.

Jason Hsieh (04:36)
Yeah, yeah,

Troy Rasmussen (04:45)
And I can make that into a dice version really quickly. So I did. So we ended up doing both games, having our guy get us both games at once as kind of way to reduce cost in in manufacturing too.

Jason Hsieh (04:56)
That’s very interesting. So you have a regular version and a dice version is a rule totally different. Are they complimentary to each other? Are they expansion to each other in any case?

Troy Rasmussen (05:05)
Yes, to all of those questions. The card game can be played by itself, two to six players and get enough hearts for all six players. And then the dice game, we use the exact same punch board to make the hearts for the dice game. Only we doubled the amount of dice because the dice game’s kind of really, really fast if you do five hearts. Yeah. So we just did ten hearts with that one. And then you can combine both of them and I have a free set of rules online and that you can just download.

Jason Hsieh (05:07)
Okay

Troy Rasmussen (05:32)
And it allows you to play both games at once.

Jason Hsieh (05:35)
Okay, okay, okay, very interesting. Okay.

Troy Rasmussen (05:37)
It basically just kind of adds like a couple extra steps to the card game.

Jason Hsieh (05:40)
Card games, with the dice component. Do you have the actual game with you today that you can also show us?

Troy Rasmussen (05:47)
I don’t have it on me but I do have the next version of the of the game that we did

Jason Hsieh (05:51)
Sure. Yeah, if you to show that really quick.

Troy Rasmussen (05:53)
So I have this game is called Horror Season. So when we got done with flu season, my wife was like, So when are we gonna do the spooky one? we sat down, her and I just like her computer is always right next to mine. I got the spreadsheet out for the original one and I’m like, Okay, well I don’t like like it when we take the exact same game and turn it into a new game. Yeah.

Jason Hsieh (05:55)
Okay, okay.

Troy Rasmussen (06:17)
So what we did was we took my favorite cards, the ones I liked the most, yeah, and put those into the new spreadsheet. And then she just started shooting out ideas as to what we could do. And then we worked on that game for a good solid two years.

Jason Hsieh (06:30)
Wow,

Troy Rasmussen (06:31)
The number of cards went up. I had several ideas that didn’t make it into flu season. So I’m like, well, I’ve already got some ideas for cards. I can put them in this one. But then we completely changed the game mechanic too. So like in flu season, you have a second deck. Yeah. So like this is the main deck, this one. Yeah. And there’s 300 cards-ish in there. And then you have your second deck, and the second deck is just character cards.

Jason Hsieh (06:38)
I see.

Okay.

Troy Rasmussen (06:56)
So it kind of gives a little RPG element to it where you have a role that you play and each character has its own special ability and passive ability. And because this is a horror movie Halloween, you know, spooky kind of thing, we try to make it be kid friendly. So there’s no gore or anything like that. So it’s just like a lot of silliness mean kind of thing. So you everyone starts with your human card. Yeah. And of course this one my favorite because the cherry blossoms look awesome.

Jason Hsieh (07:04)
⁓

Troy Rasmussen (07:22)
Yeah. And and I didn’t mean to pull that. There’s others. But then we got the Chad card. But all the humans are the exact same. So all your special abilities and passive abilities are completely useless. Instead of leaving them blank, I just put a joke stupid ability at the bottom. Okay. And your special ability, so a special ability is during the game, you can instead of playing a card, you can use your roles.

Jason Hsieh (07:27)
Okay.

⁓

Troy Rasmussen (07:46)
Action as one of your actions.

Jason Hsieh (07:48)
Okay, okay, okay.

Troy Rasmussen (07:49)
And the passive ability is because you happen to be that monster or you’re that human, then you get a bonus because a card came up and got played. I see. Like for example, we have witchy type cards like complete a potion and crystal ball. And when those are played, you get a bonus. And we also have zombies. And in the zombies there when someone dies

Jason Hsieh (08:05)
I see. Okay.

Okay.

Troy Rasmussen (08:13)
Mm-hmm. You gain a heart because you just ate the dead body.

And then we also have a card called Zombie Horde, where Zombie Horde gets played. All the humans lose a heart and zombies level up and get a heart back. ⁓

Jason Hsieh (08:25)
Cool.

Very interesting. So what is the goal of How do you win?

Troy Rasmussen (08:29)
Same kind of thing. Instead of little Valentine’s Jeremy hearts, we put these little corporeal hearts in the game. Okay. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So same kind of thing. Like I said, it’s a similar concept. It just I added more crap to it because that’s what happens. You give me two years to make a game. Yeah. You know, it’s a lot of ideas I didn’t really throw out, I just made them kept working on until they worked. So you get five hearts again, and the goal of the game is to limit all the other players.

Jason Hsieh (08:49)
Yeah, yeah,

Troy Rasmussen (08:54)
And in this game, the way you eliminate people, instead of giving them infections, you stab them.

Jason Hsieh (08:58)
Okay, okay, okay.

Troy Rasmussen (09:00)
We have these cards, you see the suit up here in the corner, is a stab wound card. And so you just stab them. Yeah. And then the way you get your hearts back in this game is you play these potion cards. This is our most common one. You play this, you get a heart back. You use the hearts to protect your life and the stab wounds to eliminate other players.

Jason Hsieh (09:03)
I see, okay.

Okay.

It’s kind of like a free for all, kill everyone else pretty much kind of a…

Troy Rasmussen (09:24)
I’ve had these games described as chaotic. And what’s funny is the only time I ever hear that described as chaotic is when I’m going to gaming conventions. Yeah. And you have the purest board game people that are like, it must have a strategy. I need it to work. And I need to be able to plan out 15 moves and know all these moves are gonna work and I’m gonna win. Yeah. Where with chaos games

Jason Hsieh (09:27)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Troy Rasmussen (09:48)
That is the strategy. And that’s the fun of it. Yeah. Is you’re basically just like, you got a plan? You think so? Lose all your cards. You know? And so winning in a chaos game is a lot more challenging in my opinion than winning in a strategy game where you can line up all your moves like a chess match.

Jason Hsieh (09:56)
I see

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely a bit different.

Troy Rasmussen (10:07)
And for me, on top of that, the fun of these games is it lets you know how good a friend your friends are. Because if you think about it, these are attack games. Like when I was playing these games through development, I usually like to play them with my nephews because they’re really great and really smart and they’re total jerks. And so they will go through and pick through everything.

Jason Hsieh (10:15)
Yes, yes, yes.

Troy Rasmussen (10:29)
And they will play the cards in a that like I’d never thought that it should be played that way. And so it’s actually really good because then like, okay, well, my intent of this card is to do X, Y, and Z. How can I write this so that when you read it, meaning and you and therefore everyone else reads it, you understand my intent with this card and we can make that action happen.

Jason Hsieh (10:48)
I see, okay, okay.

Troy Rasmussen (10:50)
I really like you having them be my testers. In fact actually I’ve got another game here that they worked on. This is my new board game. Yeah, so this is the board game. Yeah. This is the one that’s in process right now. The theme of this one, I’m I’m going away from the seasons ’cause I have flu season and horror season. Yeah. And each one’s like another season. Yeah. So I’m gonna try and do

Jason Hsieh (10:57)
You have another one, okay.

I see, I see.

Yeah.

Troy Rasmussen (11:12)
I wanted to do a board game. I wanted to do a conversion game for horror season. And that game like I spent a lot of time crunching the numbers of how I could make horror season also be a board game where we would just make a conversion kit where you get you a board, maybe twenty more cards, yeah, and then pieces, and then you have to play the game, the board and the cards at the same time.

Jason Hsieh (11:16)
Okay

And also the dice.

Troy Rasmussen (11:35)
Well yeah actually, I know it is possible to play both the flu season game and the horror season the games together. I haven’t done it. But it’s possible.

Jason Hsieh (11:43)
Yeah,

It’s possible. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Troy Rasmussen (11:47)
So but like what I was thinking I would do is like I will just make a board because that’s an another thing that I hear in board game conventions is that the hierarchy of games is the best game when you go from video to table is a board. That is the elite version of a game. If it doesn’t have a board, then it’s like playing Uno and I’m not a kid anymore. And so I’m like, well, you know the difference between a card game and a board game is the actual board. Because

Board games have cards.

And so I’m like, well, I could easily convert this game into a board game. And so I actually started working on that idea a couple years ago and then got to the point where it didn’t quite work. Because like I already had an existing working game and I was trying to make the game work with that game, like almost like being an enhancement. But also I wanted the game to be sold independently, you know, so that way it’s not just the board game. Yeah.

Jason Hsieh (12:23)
Okay, okay.

Okay, okay, okay.

Yeah,

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Troy Rasmussen (12:40)
Yeah.

And so I ended up coming up with three sets of rules.

Jason Hsieh (12:43)
That’s complicated, okay.

Troy Rasmussen (12:44)
Plus the rest set of rules already in the game, the card game deck. And so like I just got to the point that it just didn’t feel right, doesn’t it wasn’t quite working. And so I decided to throw out some of the rules and and just basically start over from scratch. That evolved into another game, which I also threw out and is now evolved into the one that I just showed you.

Jason Hsieh (12:47)
Okay, okay.

I see.

Yeah, it’s definitely a process. Throughout this process of developing so many different games, what has been some of biggest challenges that you faced?

Troy Rasmussen (13:15)
Balance is really important and that’s why like you know I’m a numbers guy so I’ll get out the spreadsheets, I’ll crunch the numbers, I’ll make sure that as much as I can that the game works but like especially in the new game you have to get powers and weapons in order to beat monsters.

And so it’s a dice rolling game where you have a dice that you roll, and then you also have cards that you play and then that you math up everything. So yeah, like I have a level, I’m level one plus my skills. I’ve got a 10 point skill, that’s 11. I try to beat a 20 point monster, I roll the dice. If I can’t beat that 20 point monster with the dice plus all that, then I have another I have a one time use weapon I can play, right? Well

Having all the monsters have the same health the whole time, going through twenty dungeons is boring. So then I got to work on scaling. Well, how do I scale? Where do I scale? You know, at what point do I scale up the health of the monsters and still make it be that by the time you get to that point, you’re not so overpowered that a monster pops out and it’s instantly killed. You know, because like I’ve got

Three hundred points and skills here or something like that, you know? So then you then what you do is you introduce things like controls where like if I have a twenty five point skill that you can have, you’re not allowed to play it until you reach a certain level. Meaning that then that makes it harder. And then also have this is kind of a placeholder image, so don’t pay too much attention to it. Like

Jason Hsieh (14:35)
Okay, yeah.

Okay

Troy Rasmussen (14:43)
This is how you would map your character. So you would keep track of your level right here. And as you go through your levels, you’re allowed a certain number of skill slots.

Yeah. And then also when you kill monsters, you’re only allowed to hold a certain number of hearts.

Jason Hsieh (14:54)
Okay, okay. Yeah.

Troy Rasmussen (14:56)
If you

Can’t beat the monster, you can only take damage three times or you’re out of the game.

Jason Hsieh (15:00)
Okay, okay, okay,

Troy Rasmussen (15:01)
And with this same component, you can play the game, you know, the way it plays, you can play it competitively or cooperatively without having the rules change barely at all.

Jason Hsieh (15:10)
You can also do co-op. Okay, interesting. Yeah. Okay.

Troy Rasmussen (15:13)
My main goal with this and I’d had it asked a lot is do you have any solo play games? Yeah. And so that’s a way you can do it a solo play. You can play two players yourself and work your way through the game. But also multiple people can play, you could do teams like two on two. So and all of that is something that as of right now works. So every time I play it,

Jason Hsieh (15:18)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

I see.

Troy Rasmussen (15:36)
As if a something doesn’t work, obviously you’ve got to change it. And with this being basically the third version of this particular game, we’ve worked out quite a bit of bugs. I’ve already had my nephews look at it, tell me how dumb stuff was. You know, like that doesn’t make sense. I’m like, Okay, let’s throw that out. That doesn’t work. Like if I can’t explain it to them in a way that they go, Okay, I see what you’re doing, yeah, then I throw it out. It doesn’t do me any good.

Jason Hsieh (15:59)
He’s your nephew, by the way.

Troy Rasmussen (16:00)
I have two nephews that come over and they are late twenties.

Jason Hsieh (16:06)
They’re really 20s. Okay. So they’re younger. Okay. Okay. I see.

Troy Rasmussen (16:09)
Yeah, I’m an old dude. I’m fifty two. So my nephews are much older.

Jason Hsieh (16:13)
I see. So what is your process for play testing besides playing with your nephew? Do you also have like, do you also go to different events like the for play testing as well?

Troy Rasmussen (16:23)
Usually I can get some families to play with me. I haven’t tried them yet, but I want to with this game. Yeah. There is a gaming bar in the area where I live. You can go on Wednesday nights and play the game and I’ve met them, I’ve been there, but I haven’t done any beta testing because I kind of want to get this not broken.

Jason Hsieh (16:32)
Okay. Okay. That’s good.

Troy Rasmussen (16:42)
But over the course of the years going to conventions selling the existing games, I’ve actually met a lot of people that I have a contact good guy that was willing to turn my flu season games into a video demo version.

Jason Hsieh (16:56)
Really? That would be really cool.

Troy Rasmussen (16:58)
Yeah, Yeah. He got busy, so I’m gonna wait on that. But because he also has a game design career, I kind of wanna play the game with him. I’ve already talked to him about that, he’s volunteered. So you kind of have to tap into the people you know. But on top of that, when you find people that are really good, you basically want them to crap all over your game. Because if they don’t

The people who buy it will.

Jason Hsieh (17:21)
True, true, true, true, true. I know you’re very data-driven. Can you share some example with some of the data, some of analytics that you use to help you improve the game?

Troy Rasmussen (17:30)
Yeah, so like I’ve done the data with all of my games and it’s definitely very nerdy. So in my Excel sheets I have all the names of the cards, okay, the number of cards I want to include in the game. So like let’s just say for example, let me just grab this one card. So this card right here, it’s called Apothecary Okay. You play this and everyone gets a heart. Okay. So I actually have a

Jason Hsieh (17:47)
Yeah.

Okay.

Troy Rasmussen (17:52)
In my Excel sheet a column that counts up all of the potion cards. Yeah. Determines how much percentage of the entire game the potion cards are plus how much percentage of the entire game that one card is plus how much percentage of that group it is. And the goal is to like if I add one or take one away, how’s that going to affect the game? Am I going to have like

Jason Hsieh (18:04)
Okay.

Troy Rasmussen (18:12)
If the goal of the game is to eliminate people, I don’t want the medicines and the potion cards to keep everyone alive for very long. I want everyone to get hurt. So in my game design thought process, it was just a matter of let’s see how quickly we can eliminate people. Yes. But then you need to give enough balance in the health to keep people in the game that want to be in the game.

Jason Hsieh (18:33)
I see. I see. See. I see. Yeah, OK. I see. Yeah. I think not everyone approaches the game design the way you do, but that’s definitely a very interesting way to make sure the game itself is well balanced. It’s not skewed in any way. And in your process, I think you also did a Kickstarter for your game, correct?

Troy Rasmussen (18:53)
Yes. Yeah, we did a combo Kickstarter for the flu season games because we had them together. And then we did a separate Kickstarter for horror season.

Jason Hsieh (19:00)
Okay, okay, okay. How was your experience with the Kickstarter campaign?

Troy Rasmussen (19:04)
Rough. Well but we didn’t go in there with very many expectations because nobody knows who we are. The people that have bought the games, they know who we are because they’ve met me personally. I’ve only gone to conventions and most of the people that bought the games in the Kickstarter were family members and friends, people I bribed, you know. But also okay like

Some random people like we did some random ad advertising on there’s this website called Board Game Geek and it’s supposed to be the end all be all for databases. Of course I did advertising there. Got a little bit of traffic for all the games from there. Okay. But primarily especially for horror season because I had a game to sell I coordinated conventions with the Kickstarter for horror season. So I would go in person

To play the new horror season with a promotional box. And also to let people get their hands on flu season so then they could play it and decide if they wanted to jump on the Kickstarter.

Jason Hsieh (19:58)
Okay, that’s a good strategy, but you didn’t run like the meta ads like everyone else for six months. So a lot of people I talked to were around like three to six months of ads campaign leading to the Kickstarter.

Troy Rasmussen (20:09)
I did run meta ads, hit both Facebook and Instagram. Okay. I did some Twitter ads at the time. Yeah.

I think that was mostly yeah. Mostly did Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. Okay. And you know, when you don’t have a lot of money to put into your advertisement, your dollars, you know, you kinda have to target where you go.

Jason Hsieh (20:27)
True, true, true. You need to be very careful with the investment. Otherwise, the Zuckerberg just will take all your money. Right. So yeah, that’s definitely true. So, and as we’re kind of wrapping up today’s interview here, looking back in your own personal journey on creating these companies and all the different wonderful game you have so far, if you have to share just one piece of advice with someone that’s also just getting started in the toys and game industry, what would that be?

Troy Rasmussen (20:53)
For me it was when you’re making a game, think about what you’re going to put in the game and then go find some game manufacturing companies. They have demo pieces you can use, but more importantly, find out how much it’s gonna cost and keep that in mind when you make it. Yeah. Because paper is cheaper than plastic, plastic’s cheaper than resin. Resin

You know, than acrylic. Acrylic is cheaper than resin. So you know, if you’re going to do things like that, like with this board game, I’ve already got so many elements that are gonna be put into it. Where I’m gonna be paying for a board for each box. You all you also pay for the box. The box is the cost. You also have to like can considering the elements that I’m gonna be putting into the new game, I’m constantly keeping in mind like

Because I have a 3D printer, it have some practice pieces that I just printed myself. This our coin. When you kill a monster, you trade it in for the coin, and this is our coin that called crystal. Right? So I just have these just so I can have something to play with. Instead of you know doing stickers or writing stuff. I figured, well, I’ve got the printer, so may as well make something. And then but like

Jason Hsieh (21:47)
Okay.

Troy Rasmussen (21:58)
This isn’t gonna be the final thing in the game. I’m gonna be putting punch items in. I’m gonna go find get some artwork made for the punch items. Like some small things like this is stuff that I can handle. That’s not a problem. But like you know, for the other stuff, I’d want to hire out an artist. I’m actually trying to think this game is gonna be an anime theme. Yeah. So like when you watch those anime adventures.

Where the person goes out and be fights the dungeon at the go back and sell the monster at the guild hall kind of thing. Yeah. That’s literally what you do is you once you take the monster, you go back to a guild hall and you sell the monsters there and you get crystals and you buy your weapons in the guild hall. ⁓ So I’m looking for particularly for people that enjoy doing anime art and I kind of had the idea given to me by an artist friend who said that

Jason Hsieh (22:33)
Okay, okay.

Troy Rasmussen (22:45)
We should get multiple artists because then you have different styles. Every character would have a unique style. And then I could have weapons that go for that character and they would be in the same style.

Jason Hsieh (22:54)
I see. Yeah, definitely a lot of things to consider. But one thing I think you mentioned very important is you need to know your number, not just for the game rule, but also how much it’s going to cost to create a game. So yeah. And shout out to our friend, Game Crafter, if you want to look into easy way to prototype.

Troy Rasmussen (23:11)
Yeah, I’ve been using game crafters for the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah, ’cause you can get blanks, I’ve ordered blanks for the boards, everything. So yeah. Yeah, I definitely like game crafters.

Jason Hsieh (23:20)
Yeah, it’s an easy way for early prototyping for sure.

Troy Rasmussen (23:24)
Yeah, I did learn that I can use them to make almost like a manufactured version that you can just print and get some custom

That you can use. That way I can use that to promote the game before the Kickstarter. So that’s an element I definitely like.

Jason Hsieh (23:34)
Yes.

Yeah. And thank you again for your time today and sharing your journey, your wisdom and your knowledge within the toys and game industry.

Troy Rasmussen (23:45)
Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Jason Hsieh (23:46)
Yeah. And thank you for our audience for tuning into this episode of Toy Business Unboxed podcast. We hope today’s conversation give you some practical insight and fresh inspiration for growing your own toys or game brands. This podcast brought to by Toy Launch, a leading marketing and growth partner for toys and game companies. At Toy Launch, we help brands scale on Amazon and beyond through full service account management, PPC, SEO, creative, catalog optimization, influencer marketing, and

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You can find our community at toy-launch.com/group. For more resource update and the latest industry insight, visit us at any time at our homepage toy-launch.com. Until next time, keep innovating, keep creating, keep bringing joy through toys. This is Jason Hsieh signing off on the Toy Business Unboxed podcast. See you in the next episode. Thank you so much, everyone. Thank you.