Welcome to another episode of the Toy Business Unboxed Podcast. Jason talks with Nazareno Properzi, game designer and key member of Little Rocket Games, an independent board game, card game, and game book publisher based in Italy. Nazareno shares how a chance meeting in a local game shop grew into a catalog of more than 30 titles, and how the company built one of the more unusual success stories in board gaming with a tiny solo dungeon crawler. Their conversation covers Kickstarter strategy, European trade shows, and what it actually takes to grow a game publisher outside your home country.
#204: The Secret Life of Print and Play Games – Toy Business Unboxed
Episode Highlight
- 00:42 Meet Nazareno and Little Rocket
- 01:21 How Nazareno became a designer
- 03:08 Starting a board game company
- 05:31 Little Rocket’s trade show strategy
- 08:32 Print and play Kickstarter strategy
- 19:48 Inside Italy’s board game market
- 23:00 Why One Card Dungeon sells
- 26:19 Growing Little Rocket Games internationally
- 30:14 Advice for new game designers
From a Game Shop Meeting to a Publishing Company
Nazareno Properzi got his start the way many designers do, playing the classics like Monopoly and Risk before moving into Dungeons and Dragons and skirmish games with friends. That habit of tweaking house rules eventually turned into game design. He met Little Rocket Games’ owner, Giampaolo, while trying to sell his own small card game in Giampaolo’s shop, and the two started talking about Giampaolo’s plan to launch a board game company. That conversation six or seven years ago became the start of Little Rocket Games.
Growing a Catalog of More Than 30 Games
Unlike many US startups that lean on Kickstarter from day one, Little Rocket Games grew the traditional way, publishing games and building relationships at conventions before crowdfunding became part of the mix. The company now publishes its own games and licenses others’ titles for the Italian market, and its catalog has grown past 30 games, with 10 to 15 new titles added most years. The four person team splits the work by specialty: owner Giampaolo touches nearly everything, one team member focuses only on the Italian market, Alessandra handles advertising and press relationships, and Nazareno runs the company’s Kickstarter projects.
A Trade Show Strategy Built Around Essen and Nuremberg
Little Rocket Games keeps its trade show footprint focused on two events in Europe: Nuremberg Toy Fair, which Nazareno describes as strictly business to business, and Essen Spiel, which he calls a must for any board game company no matter how small. They also travel to UK Game Expo, though only to scout new games and designers rather than exhibit, since scaling past a handful of releases a year means finding outside talent instead of trying to design everything in house. Nazareno says there are plenty of strong new designers around the world, which makes scouting a real part of how the company grows its lineup.
Betting on Print and Play Alongside Physical Games
Little Rocket Games has leaned into print and play campaigns as a deliberate strategy, not just a fallback. Their Kickstarter for the latest One Card Dungeon expansion offered a print and play only option and pulled in more than 700 backers, a strong number for that format since there is no shipping, tariffs, or logistics to manage once the campaign ends. Small games in particular benefit, since a fifteen euro game can rack up twenty euros or more in shipping, which Nazareno says makes physical only campaigns a hard sell. Pricing for print and play tends to run three to five euros for small games and up to ten or fifteen euros for larger ones, and Nazareno now recommends any small game campaign include a print and play tier as an option.
The Unlikely Rise of One Card Dungeon
One Card Dungeon, designed by Barney Skinner and winner of a BoardGameGeek design competition, packs an entire dungeon crawler onto a single card plus a handful of dice. It is also a solo game, a category Nazareno says most publishers avoid because solo titles typically underperform at retail. Little Rocket Games has instead reprinted it six times since its first release five years ago, running about 3,000 copies per reprint, with the gap between reprints shrinking as sales keep climbing. The game is now distributed in the US and Canada through Bridge Distribution, and Nazareno credits its pixel art box and genuine strategic depth for the steady stream of players talking about it online.
Localization, the Italian Market, and What Sells
Nazareno says Italy has one of the smaller board game markets in Europe, partly because most new games are published in English first, even by companies whose teams do not speak English, since that is the standard at events like Essen Spiel. That makes importing lesser known games into Italian financially risky unless a title already has strong buzz. Smaller, cheaper games and party games tend to sell best locally, generally staying under forty euros, though Little Rocket Games has one notable exception in Cascadia, a licensed title popular enough that they reprint it every year. Reaching markets outside Italy, like the US, China, or Australia, has been possible mainly through local distribution partners rather than going it alone.
Exploring a Digital Future for One Card Dungeon
Little Rocket Games is now in talks to bring One Card Dungeon to phones and computers, building on the game’s expansions and its built-in print and play audience. Nazareno says the pricing model is still undecided, but a small game like this would likely sell for just a euro or two once live. He points out that porting a board game to mobile has gotten far less expensive than it was a decade ago, and that tools like AI can now help speed up parts of the translation work, though someone still needs to understand how the game plays to do it well. For players who love the game but cannot always carry a physical copy while traveling, a mobile version would make it easy to keep playing anywhere.
Growing Little Rocket Games Beyond Italy
Looking ahead, Nazareno says the company’s clear priority is growing internationally, since Little Rocket Games is already a recognized name in Italy but largely unknown abroad. The plan is to keep increasing new releases every year, going from four new games last year and this year to two more nearly finished for next year’s first quarter, with four to six additional titles planned around next year’s Essen Spiel. One of this year’s new releases reuses One Card Dungeon’s system, a choice the team is proud of. Nazareno is candid that building international recognition will take time, joking that becoming the next Asmodee is not happening overnight.
Advice for Newcomers in the Toy and Game Industry
Nazareno’s advice for designers is direct: never pitch a publisher an unfinished prototype. He says the strongest way to approach a company is with a polished, finished product, since showing up with something rough is one of the worst ways to make a first impression. He also has a second piece of advice for designers whose games do get picked up: do not be afraid if a publisher wants to change the theme or rules significantly. Little Rocket Games once reworked a game so heavily it was nearly unrecognizable from the original pitch, and Nazareno says the final result turned out better than what they started with.
Conclusion
Nazareno Properzi’s path from trading house rules with friends to running Kickstarter campaigns for Little Rocket Games shows how far a small, focused publisher can go without a huge team or budget. Between a catalog of more than 30 games, a growing print and play business, and a solo dungeon crawler that keeps finding new fans five years after launch, the company has built success in corners of the market that bigger publishers often overlook. As Little Rocket Games pushes to grow beyond Italy, its approach stays the same: polish the product, find the right partners, and keep showing up at the right trade shows. For any designer or small publisher listening, it is proof that steady, deliberate growth can compete with scale.
Connect with Angelina Castro
If you’re interested in learning more about Women in Toys, Licensing and Entertainment or connecting with Angelina Castro you can reach out through the following channels:
- Website: Visit Little Rocket Games’ official website to get involved, stay updated on the latest news, and more.
- Instagram: Follow Little Rocket Games on Instagram for visual updates, announcements, and more.
- Facebook: Follow Little Rocket Games on Facebook for updates, discussions, and behind-the-scenes content.
Transcript
Toy Launch (00:42)
Welcome back to another episode of Toy Business Unboxed where we talk about story behind the people building in the toys and game industry. For today’s guest is an international guest calling all the way from Italy, Nazareno, a game designer and key member of a small publishing company based in Italy called Little Rocket Games, who they are independent Italian-based publisher that was creating board games, card games, game books, enjoyed by family around the world.
Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.
Nazareno Properzi (01:11)
Thank you.
Toy Launch (01:12)
So first of all, can you share with our audience
Your journey? Like how do you even got into this industry and also how long have you been in the industry so far?
Nazareno Properzi (01:21)
Yes, so well as many designers I basically always played board games. So I started
Toy Launch (01:28)
Mm-hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (01:29)
With you know with the most popular as everybody I guess at least played ones. Monopoly, Risk, you know, the usuals. But you know,
Toy Launch (01:36)
Lovely. Yes.
Nazareno Properzi (01:39)
Back in the days in the nineties those were the ones.
Anyway, so the passion stayed even you know after growing up and with Dungeons and Dragon and a few skirmish games me and my friends were started to modify the games.
Toy Launch (01:58)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (01:58)
So
And from there, you know, you start building up, you know, the mentality of okay, these rules could be better this way, and so on. So that’s how
Toy Launch (02:09)
Mm-hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (02:09)
You basically start the process of becoming a game designer.
Toy Launch (02:14)
Mm-hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (02:15)
And with Little Rocket Games we actually met
In the game shop of
Toy Launch (02:21)
Mm-hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (02:22)
The owner of the company and
Toy Launch (02:24)
Okay.
Nazareno Properzi (02:24)
Back in the days I was showing my only game that I made it was a small
Toy Launch (02:29)
Mm-hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (02:30)
Card game and I was looking for shops to sell it and
Toy Launch (02:34)
Okay.
Nazareno Properzi (02:35)
That’s where all started. I say to Giampaolo, the owner of the company, I have this small game, and he said, Well, I’m actually also starting a company that
Toy Launch (02:45)
Okay, okay.
Nazareno Properzi (02:46)
You know to produce board games. So we start chatting and that’s where everything started.
Toy Launch (02:53)
What year was that? many years ago was that?
Nazareno Properzi (02:55)
That I think it’s six years ago. Six or seven
Years ago.
Toy Launch (02:59)
And obviously the marketing Italy is quite different than us. How easy is
Nazareno Properzi (03:05)
Yes.
Toy Launch (03:05)
It to start a board game company in Italy?
Nazareno Properzi (03:08)
I think it’s not easy anywhere to start a board game company at all.
Toy Launch (03:10)
Yeah. Yeah. Sure.
Nazareno Properzi (03:14)
Because you don’t really need just a good idea.
Toy Launch (03:19)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (03:19)
You need connections, you need distribution and
Toy Launch (03:24)
Yes.
Nazareno Properzi (03:25)
Definitely you need to have the money
To start the whole company
Toy Launch (03:29)
Here in US,
A popular way for a new board game company to launch is to use Kickstarter to do the initial fundraising for the product.
Nazareno Properzi (03:38)
Yeah.
Toy Launch (03:39)
Is that also true for Italian based company as well? Do you guys also do a lot of Kickstarter?
Nazareno Properzi (03:42)
Yes, absolutely, absolutely. That’s
That’s actually how I started personally. But Little
Toy Launch (03:47)
Okay, okay,
Nazareno Properzi (03:49)
Rocket Games went on the old fashioned way, which is
Toy Launch (03:53)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (03:54)
They produced a game, they went to conventions and slowly
Toy Launch (03:58)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (03:59)
Grow to what it is now.
We have many games produces by us and also we like license board games produced by other companies so we bring them in Italy
Toy Launch (04:11)
Okay.
Nazareno Properzi (04:12)
So our catalog now it’s over 30 games
Toy Launch (04:16)
Okay, yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (04:17)
And we are increasing the number of I think between 10 to 15 new games every year almost. Yeah.
Toy Launch (04:27)
Okay. Okay. Okay.
And also, you mentioned about some of the strategy of partnering with other publishers in other countries and turn it into kind of like a localization version
Of it.
Nazareno Properzi (04:38)
Yes. So
So yeah, so we not only localize other games in Italy, but of course
Toy Launch (04:45)
Yes.
Nazareno Properzi (04:45)
The one of the biggest part of the business is try to localize your own game outside your own country.
Toy Launch (04:53)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Outside. Yeah. It’s
Nazareno Properzi (04:55)
It’s true that selling your game
To retailers, distributors, and it’s mostly the most profitable way to do it. But
Toy Launch (05:05)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (05:07)
Reaching countries like for example, for us reaching US, it’s really difficult. Or reaching China or I think
We have a distribution now in Australia but we
Toy Launch (05:21)
Okay.
Nazareno Properzi (05:21)
Only do because we have partners so
Toy Launch (05:25)
I see.
Nazareno Properzi (05:26)
Definitely having partners around the world it’s key to build your company.
Toy Launch (05:31)
I see, I see let’s talk about the European market a little bit. You
Mentioned about the trade show besides Spiel Essen and maybe Nuremberg Toy Fair, are some of other local trade show in Europe that’s a game related that you go to or you recommend
Nazareno Properzi (05:45)
Well
Toy Launch (05:46)
People to go to?
Nazareno Properzi (05:47)
Well we actually go only in Italy at the moment and on those
Toy Launch (05:52)
Okay. I see.
Nazareno Properzi (05:53)
Two because those are the two most important
Well Nuremberg is only for business to business. So
Toy Launch (06:01)
Yes.
Nazareno Properzi (06:02)
So definitely you want to go there so especially
If you open a new company, you might
Toy Launch (06:08)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (06:09)
Want to go there after a few years
Once you have a bit of connections. But
Toy Launch (06:14)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (06:15)
Definitely if you have even the smallest company
Toy Launch (06:20)
Mm-hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (06:20)
Of board games, you have to go to Essen Spiel.
Toy Launch (06:25)
Mm-hmm. One of the biggest event.
Yeah, Mm-hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (06:27)
Yes,
It’s not just because you can see you know what other company do there. So it’s not
Toy Launch (06:34)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (06:34)
Just an opportunity to learn, but it’s probably the best opportunity for business to business. So to know new company that can become partners
In the future.
Toy Launch (06:47)
I see, see. Do you also go to UK Game Expo? I know that’s another one that some people go to.
Nazareno Properzi (06:52)
We don’t go with our booth, but we
Toy Launch (06:55)
Okay.
Nazareno Properzi (06:55)
Do go for scouting mostly.
Toy Launch (06:58)
Scouting. Okay. Interesting. Okay. Means you want to localize
Nazareno Properzi (06:59)
Yes. Absolutely.
Toy Launch (07:01)
It into Italian version. What do you mean by scouting?
Nazareno Properzi (07:03)
Exactly, exactly.
So we try to scout games but also designers.
Toy Launch (07:10)
Mmm.
Nazareno Properzi (07:11)
Once you reach the point of that you want to publish maybe four or five or more games a year,
Toy Launch (07:20)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (07:21)
You definitely cannot do all of them.
You either need more workforce, but
Toy Launch (07:26)
Yes.
Nazareno Properzi (07:27)
As a small company you can’t really have many people. So the best
Toy Launch (07:31)
I see.
Nazareno Properzi (07:31)
Way is to find designers around the world
And I have to be honest that there are a lot of designers, new designers also, with very
Good ideas.
Toy Launch (07:41)
Yeah.
I see. Okay. Okay.
Just curious. What is the current team setup? How many employees is under the companies and who does what?
Nazareno Properzi (07:49)
We are basically
We are four so
There’s Giampaolo the owner that does basically everything you know, yeah. Then we have one guy specialized in the Italian market
Toy Launch (08:03)
Okay, okay, okay.
Nazareno Properzi (08:04)
So he does only that
Toy Launch (08:06)
Okay.
Nazareno Properzi (08:06)
And
We have Alessandra, which is she’s focused on advertisements and public relation with the reviewers
Toy Launch (08:12)
Okay
Nazareno Properzi (08:16)
And designers and so on.
Toy Launch (08:18)
I see, okay.
Nazareno Properzi (08:20)
And then there’s me, which I I focus mainly in Kickstarter projects. Yeah.
Toy Launch (08:26)
Okay.
Nazareno Properzi (08:27)
Yeah, having having a small company, Kickstarter does help. Definitely.
Toy Launch (08:32)
Yeah, how many
Kickstarter campaign do you typically do a year?
Nazareno Properzi (08:35)
We started doing one every two years.
Toy Launch (08:38)
Oh one every two a year, okay.
Nazareno Properzi (08:40)
We are now around one a year. We’re aiming to do two a year. Yeah.
Toy Launch (08:45)
Oh, two a year. Okay. Okay.
Oh, that’s an ambitious goal. It’s a lot of work.
Nazareno Properzi (08:49)
Yeah, yeah. Well
We are aiming on doing one just for print and play and
Toy Launch (08:56)
Okay, yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (08:57)
One for physical game.
Toy Launch (08:59)
Interesting. Why do you do that strategy? Just wondering.
Nazareno Properzi (09:03)
A Kickstarter campaign for a print and play. It’s really,
Toy Launch (09:06)
It’s a little bit easier.
Nazareno Properzi (09:08)
It’s really easy.
Once you have the Kickstarter page done, which okay, it does take time and effort, but once you do that, you do a bit of advertisement.
Toy Launch (09:19)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (09:19)
The moment the campaign
Ends, your job finished there. You
Toy Launch (09:24)
Because you’re sending out PDF
File for them to print and just play themselves.
Nazareno Properzi (09:27)
That’s it. Exactly.
Toy Launch (09:29)
So you don’t need to worry about shipping, logistic, tariff, all the other nonsense. I see.
Nazareno Properzi (09:32)
Exactly. Yes. And
It might be actually a strange concept, but there is quite a big community of print and play of people that like print and play. We actually made the Kickstarter of
Our latest expansion for One card dungeon. One card dungeon it’s probably the game that sells the most of our catalog. As the name says, it’s an entire dungeon crawler on one card. And it’s yeah.
It’s probably the smallest dungeon crawler in the world, I’d say.
And the designer is Barney Skinner.
Toy Launch (10:12)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (10:13)
He actually won a board game geek competition for this game. Yeah. Anyway, so yeah, we did a Kickstart and campaign for the last expansion.
Toy Launch (10:23)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (10:23)
And we
Of course we included also everything else, but we did only the print and play version of it.
Toy Launch (10:31)
You only did a print and play version.
Nazareno Properzi (10:33)
Yes.
Toy Launch (10:33)
I have a follow-up question because I haven’t been backing a lot of print and play campaign myself. Usually I like to get a physical product myself as a backer.
Nazareno Properzi (10:41)
Yeah, I understand.
Toy Launch (10:43)
But with print and play, sounds like you have quite a bit of experience. Do people also do print and play with a 3D printer? Like you provide a 3D printing model for them to actually print the physical games using their 3D printer instead of just a PDF?
Nazareno Properzi (10:55)
Well,
Some of them yes, but what the print and playing community let’s call it
Toy Launch (11:02)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (11:03)
It mostly do small games. So yeah, exactly. And One Card
Toy Launch (11:07)
Okay, okay. So usually just paper, usually paper based. Okay.
Nazareno Properzi (11:11)
Dungeon it’s probably the best fit because it’s one card. So
So it it doesn’t have many components and the other components
Toy Launch (11:21)
Yes.
Nazareno Properzi (11:21)
Of the game are just regular dice. So it’s really, really easy to print.
Toy Launch (11:27)
Okay, okay, interesting.
Nazareno Properzi (11:27)
And
We I think we had more than 700 backers, which is you know, it’s…
Toy Launch (11:32)
Okay.
Nazareno Properzi (11:33)
It’s not a crazy number, but for a print and play it’s a really good number. Yeah.
Toy Launch (11:38)
That’s pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Since
Your cost is also a lot lower than a physical product, you don’t need to worry about shipping. Yeah, the shipment is expensive.
Nazareno Properzi (11:42)
Yes. Yeah. And small games
Actually have for whoever you know invents, create a small game, I would actually suggest not to go for a physical Kickstarter project. Because yes, small games have one big problem a game that costs let’s say €15.
Toy Launch (12:04)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (12:05)
The shipping cost can be 20 Yes. So that’s the problem. Who who’s going to pay €35 or $40 for a game
Toy Launch (12:15)
Yeah
Nazareno Properzi (12:15)
That you know cost 15?
Toy Launch (12:17)
Hmm. Yeah. Okay. That’s a very valid point.
Nazareno Properzi (12:20)
You don’t really mind
To pay you know €50 euro shipping costs on a game that costs 150.
Because you know, it is a lot, but you can see the shipping is smaller than the game, but when it’s the other way around it’s really difficult.
Toy Launch (12:36)
I see, okay, okay, okay, okay. And the print and play game usually they just use their own dice or they use any component themselves or does it just doesn’t require a component in the design.
Nazareno Properzi (12:49)
Well I mean can be meeples and old sort of stuff that you can easily find anywhere. Yeah.
Toy Launch (12:56)
Okay.
I see. I see. See. Okay. That’s a very interesting. Think out of all the guests we have on the podcast, not a lot of people talk about the print and
Nazareno Properzi (13:03)
Yeah.
Toy Launch (13:05)
Play. It’s almost like a sub niche within the niche. Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (13:09)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well
Not only that, we actually want to go further than that.
Toy Launch (13:14)
Oh, Okay.
Nazareno Properzi (13:15)
At the moment we are talking with someone to make a One Card Dungeon
Toy Launch (13:21)
Yes.
Nazareno Properzi (13:21)
For like a virtual game so that you can play on the phone or on you know on the computer.
Toy Launch (13:28)
A mobile game.
Nazareno Properzi (13:29)
Mobile, sorry, yes. Yeah.
Toy Launch (13:29)
See. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. That’ll be really cool.
How does a business model going to work then? Is it going to pay per download in the mobile version or is it a freemium app? They just pay for upgrade or what is the business model going to look
Nazareno Properzi (13:42)
Yeah, well
It really depends because it depends mainly on the game.
We didn’t think of a strategy yet. But
Toy Launch (13:50)
I see.
Nazareno Properzi (13:51)
One Card Dungeon definitely have multiple expansions so
Toy Launch (13:55)
Yes.
Nazareno Properzi (13:55)
It can go you know in different directions. But
Toy Launch (13:58)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (13:59)
So
It depends on what you want to reach with a certain game, but usually
Toy Launch (14:05)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (14:06)
For a small game you can put you know on the phone for a euro or two. You know, it doesn’t
Toy Launch (14:12)
I see, I see, I I see, I see.
Nazareno Properzi (14:13)
Have to be expensive.
Toy Launch (14:16)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (14:17)
But because of that, there’s a
Toy Launch (14:19)
Mm-hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (14:19)
Lot of people that have the game that would actually
Toy Launch (14:22)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (14:22)
Play the game on the phone.
Toy Launch (14:25)
Yeah, yeah,
Nazareno Properzi (14:26)
And I know many many people actually that really like board games, but some games
Toy Launch (14:31)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (14:32)
You can’t really bring with you know on a journey or on holidays. So
Toy Launch (14:38)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (14:38)
Definitely have the option of playing board games on the phone, it’s really
Toy Launch (14:42)
Mm-hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (14:42)
Good. And nowadays, fortunately,
Toy Launch (14:46)
Mm-hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (14:46)
Translating let’s say a board game into a virtual game, a mobile game, it’s
Toy Launch (14:52)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (14:53)
Not as expensive as 10 years ago.
Toy Launch (14:55)
True, true, true, true. You can also use AI to help with some of the translation maybe into a mobile version. So,
Nazareno Properzi (15:02)
Yeah, yeah, probably yes, yeah. Yeah, I mean you
You still need someone that knows how to do it. But yes.
Toy Launch (15:09)
Yeah, of course. You need someone that know how to play.
It’s definitely a lot easier. And I have a follow up question because this print to play kind of niche is pretty new to me. I never really
Nazareno Properzi (15:18)
Okay.
Toy Launch (15:19)
Back the, what does the pricing usually look like? is it is like $3, $5 for a print to play. How do you even structure the pricing for that kind of game?
Nazareno Properzi (15:26)
Yes. Yes. So
Usually a small game can start for what I saw around anyway, between $3 to $5. And then larger games
Toy Launch (15:38)
Okay, okay, okay, that’s reasonable.
Nazareno Properzi (15:40)
Go up to $10, $15 even. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.
Toy Launch (15:44)
Depends on the complexity of the game that they are downloading. Okay. Okay. And do you
Also sell them like different expansion that they can also download and print and play or how do you structure the campaign usually? So.
Nazareno Properzi (15:54)
Yes. So basically
What we did with the One Card Dungeon was with the last Kickstarter especially. So Deluxe
Toy Launch (16:02)
Yes.
Nazareno Properzi (16:02)
We focused on on the last expansion, but you could
Toy Launch (16:06)
Okay.
Nazareno Properzi (16:06)
Of course then add other expansions and the base game. So
Toy Launch (16:11)
Hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (16:12)
And of course give
Also the possibility of getting just the base game and so on.
Toy Launch (16:17)
I see, I see, I see. So that’s almost like a
Nazareno Properzi (16:19)
Yeah. Well
Toy Launch (16:20)
Regular campaign with all the different tier, but this time there’s
Nazareno Properzi (16:23)
Yeah.
Toy Launch (16:23)
No physical product involved. It’s just, they just download it. So,
Nazareno Properzi (16:25)
Exactly. Yeah.
Toy Launch (16:26)
Okay.
Nazareno Properzi (16:27)
So considered that the entire saga of One Card Dungeon cost well we have a bundle of €60 euro, it’s like €59 euro. That’s has a bunch of stuff in it. There’s even custom dice and playmat. So
You can’t really compare it with the digital version, but
Toy Launch (16:47)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (16:47)
The all in pledge of One Card Dungeon digital version in the Kickstarter
Toy Launch (16:53)
Yes.
Nazareno Properzi (16:54)
Was €12 euro.
So that’s you know it’s about one-fifth of the actual price.
Toy Launch (17:01)
Okay, okay, okay. So that I can definitely see that it could be appealing to some player.
Nazareno Properzi (17:05)
We are actually studying way to make this print and play thing more a permanent thing on our website or on a separate website, yeah, so that people
Toy Launch (17:14)
Really? Okay. I see, I see.
Nazareno Properzi (17:17)
Can buy a print and play.
Toy Launch (17:20)
So is your strategy for the same game, do you always create two version, a print and play version and the physical version? Is that a strategy that you are trying to do?
Nazareno Properzi (17:28)
Well,
Not for every game. So if
Toy Launch (17:31)
Oh not for everything.
Nazareno Properzi (17:32)
The game is really small, then
Toy Launch (17:35)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (17:36)
We aim for that. Yes. So a
Toy Launch (17:38)
I see, okay, okay, okay, okay.
Nazareno Properzi (17:40)
Game with a hundred cards, it’s not worth it. Not for us and not for who downloaded. Because hundreds
Toy Launch (17:44)
Yeah, They
Have to print a hundred cards yeah. True. Yeah, yeah, true.
Nazareno Properzi (17:48)
Yeah, hundred cards, it’s like twelve pages. You know, it’s a lot. It’s really a lot. But
When a game is really small and doesn’t have too many components,
Toy Launch (18:00)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (18:00)
Then it’s worth it you know
Toy Launch (18:02)
I
Nazareno Properzi (18:02)
Not just for us, but also for the people that you know that wants it.
Toy Launch (18:06)
Wants it too yeah without the shipping
Nazareno Properzi (18:10)
I received a lot of emails, people from South America or
Toy Launch (18:15)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (18:16)
China, even Japan, Australia,
Toy Launch (18:17)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (18:20)
Where it would be really difficult to get you know to get the game, but with the print
Toy Launch (18:24)
Get the product. True, true, true.
Nazareno Properzi (18:27)
And play, there’s no problem. There’s no shipping, there’s no nothing. So even
Toy Launch (18:29)
Sure, you just need a printer.
Nazareno Properzi (18:31)
If it’s not
Let’s say the original physical copy, but they can
Toy Launch (18:36)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (18:36)
Still have the game.
Toy Launch (18:37)
Yeah, they can still play it. Yeah, that’s true. Especially for small games. Okay. That’s very, very interesting. Thank you so much for sharing that with our audience. So.
Nazareno Properzi (18:45)
No problem. Well I actually
I would suggest to people that does small games to always
Toy Launch (18:51)
Hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (18:52)
Include on their campaign a print and play version. Always.
Toy Launch (18:58)
Okay, okay, okay. To do two so they can actually choose. Is that something you also have done in the past? You provide them with two options? Putting them play and physical version? Okay.
Nazareno Properzi (19:05)
Yes, absolutely. Yeah.
When the game is small enough,
Toy Launch (19:10)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (19:10)
The print and play version it should always be there as an option.
Toy Launch (19:14)
Be there.
See. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I mean, why not? Right. If give more people options, if they died again, but you want
Nazareno Properzi (19:20)
Yeah, exactly.
Toy Launch (19:21)
To be able to shipping, that’s still a way for them to kind of participate in the campaign without investing a lot more money for the shipping and all the other stuff. So
Okay,
That’s a very good strategy that you mentioned as well. So the next thing I want to kind of follow up on is like, tell us a little bit more about the market in Italy. Is that also a big community of board gamers in Italy compared to US and Germany, other bigger country?
Nazareno Properzi (19:48)
So the market in board games in Italy it’s actually one of the smallest in Europe. And
Toy Launch (19:55)
Really? Okay.
Nazareno Properzi (19:56)
Yeah well you definitely you cannot compare with the US. You has one big advantage, English.
So consider that most
Toy Launch (20:05)
Okay. True. Yeah. Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (20:08)
Of the games that goes out especially during Essen Spiel are made in English. Even
Toy Launch (20:13)
Yeah. English, yeah, yeah, okay.
Nazareno Properzi (20:17)
By companies that are not they don’t speak English. So we
Toy Launch (20:21)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (20:21)
For example, when we make a new game, we make it in English.
Toy Launch (20:27)
I see, I see, I see, yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (20:28)
Because of course that’s you know, that’s how you start, you know.
Toy Launch (20:33)
That’s how you start. I see. Makes sense.
Nazareno Properzi (20:36)
And
So that’s definitely one advantage. So because of that find a game maybe not too famous in Italy, in Italian, it’s really difficult. Because you
Toy Launch (20:47)
And
Nazareno Properzi (20:51)
Have to have someone then import and translate it. And
Toy Launch (20:55)
True.
Nazareno Properzi (20:57)
That costs
And if the game is not a famous game, you might you you might actually lose money.
Toy Launch (21:04)
Lose
Money too, yeah. Is it a particular type of game that tend to work well in the Italian marketplace?
Nazareno Properzi (21:10)
Well I wouldn’t say a particular game, but definitely you know when a game reaches enough attention
Toy Launch (21:20)
Mm-hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (21:21)
Then sells very well also in Italy. So
Toy Launch (21:24)
I see. See. Cause
I had a guest from Japan in the past. This is an interesting about thing about Japan. The smaller
Nazareno Properzi (21:31)
Mm-hmm.
Toy Launch (21:31)
The game is, they sell better. Whereas the US is almost the opposite. The bigger the game is usually so better because I guess
Nazareno Properzi (21:37)
Yeah.
Toy Launch (21:38)
The American want everything big and like, like they want to show off. The Japanese like audience or they are coming to very different because like Japanese houses, their apartment is very small. They just don’t have a lot of room to put giant board games on the shelf.
I wonder in Italy, do you also have something, I don’t know about the demographic in Italy as much. Is there any special consideration for Italian market as well?
Nazareno Properzi (22:02)
Yes,
Well definitely smaller games sell more, but that because they cost less. So
Toy Launch (22:10)
Mm-hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (22:11)
Usually games under forty euro they sell
Toy Launch (22:15)
Mm-hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (22:15)
More than games that cost more than that. Because
Toy Launch (22:19)
Okay, okay, makes sense. Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (22:21)
Also party games they of course sell.
A lot more.
Toy Launch (22:25)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (22:27)
For our own experience, we have one exception.
Toy Launch (22:32)
Okay. Tell me more.
Nazareno Properzi (22:33)
We do license big names in Italy also, even if we are a small company, we have
Toy Launch (22:37)
Yeah. Okay.
Nazareno Properzi (22:39)
Cascadia
Toy Launch (22:40)
Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (22:40)
Yes. And
It does sell very well.
Toy Launch (22:44)
I see.
Nazareno Properzi (22:45)
We keep reprinting the game every year.
Toy Launch (22:48)
I see,
Nazareno Properzi (22:48)
So definitely it’s definitely good, but
What we noticed is that we have this game, as I mentioned before, One Card Dungeon, which
Toy Launch (22:56)
Yes. Yes.
Nazareno Properzi (22:57)
Is a game that usually publisher wouldn’t like.
Toy Launch (23:00)
Okay.
Nazareno Properzi (23:01)
It’s a solo game.
Toy Launch (23:02)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (23:03)
So publishers don’t like solo games.
Toy Launch (23:05)
Hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (23:05)
Because
They say that they do not sell on retail.
The first printing of One Card Dungeon was five years ago. We are now at the 6th reprint yes and we
Toy Launch (23:17)
Wow, okay, okay, okay. I see.
Nazareno Properzi (23:20)
Reprint every year 3,000 copies
Toy Launch (23:22)
Okay, it’s doing well.
Nazareno Properzi (23:23)
And
Toy Launch (23:23)
It’s almost like an evergreen title, yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (23:25)
Yeah, and
Actually the gap between a reprint and another is getting closer and closer to each other. So we used to reprint yes, we actually selling more now. Yes.
Toy Launch (23:33)
It’s actually selling more. Okay. Well,
Okay. That’s, that’s a good sign. Any specific
Marketing you’re doing to make it even sell more. That’s pretty rare after so many years.
Nazareno Properzi (23:45)
No,
Just people really like it. The best
Toy Launch (23:48)
I see.
Nazareno Properzi (23:48)
Marketing actually is people are talking about it a lot. Asking questions about
Toy Launch (23:53)
I see, see.
Nazareno Properzi (23:56)
Rules, because it is a game that you play against yourself and you have
Toy Launch (24:00)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (24:01)
To move the monsters. So
Toy Launch (24:02)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (24:03)
Sometimes there might be an uncertainty of how you should move the monsters or how you, you know you should do certain things and
Toy Launch (24:10)
I see. I see.
Nazareno Properzi (24:14)
We can see every week posts on Facebook about One Card Dungeon
Toy Launch (24:20)
Is this game also available in US for our US audience? OK. OK. And you have
Nazareno Properzi (24:24)
It is, yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Toy Launch (24:27)
A US distributor that’s also selling the game?
Nazareno Properzi (24:29)
Yes, we have
Yeah yeah. We have bridge distribution that it distributes the game in the US and Canada.
Toy Launch (24:37)
Okay. Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. Yeah. That’s very interesting as well.
Nazareno Properzi (24:42)
Yeah, it is
A very almost unique thing
That happened because as I was saying, there are not many solo game that sells a lot, you know.
Toy Launch (24:53)
Yeah, solo game is a hard one to sell. Usually like you say, party game usually always outsell the
Nazareno Properzi (24:59)
Yeah, exactly.
Toy Launch (24:59)
Solo game. I see, I see. Why would you say that attribute to the success of this particular game? it because of the mechanisms or like the gameplay itself is very unique or what would you say is like the biggest selling point that people just like it and keep on sharing with their friends?
Nazareno Properzi (25:16)
Well the very first thing is when you see the box has pixel art. So a
Toy Launch (25:22)
Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (25:23)
Small box pixel art so it does you know have a its appeal.
Toy Launch (25:28)
Okay.
Nazareno Properzi (25:29)
But I played it many times. I played all the expansions
And it is a difficult game. It is not as an easy game.
Toy Launch (25:35)
I see,
Nazareno Properzi (25:36)
I mean it is a dungeon crawler where you throw dice, so it does have the lack component, but
Toy Launch (25:42)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (25:43)
Actually once you understand the strategy, then you start, you know, you start winning. But
Toy Launch (25:50)
Hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (25:51)
You
Have to reach the point of understanding how you should move, when you should move, how to attack,
Toy Launch (25:58)
I see.
Nazareno Properzi (25:59)
When to attack, and so on. So
Toy Launch (26:01)
I see,
Nazareno Properzi (26:02)
For a very small game has a lot of strategy in it. And I think
Toy Launch (26:06)
Strategy, yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (26:07)
That’s what people like. Plus you can
Toy Launch (26:09)
Hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (26:10)
Bring it basically anywhere you go.
Toy Launch (26:12)
True true true, it’s so small and very portable as well. So, okay, so I guess looking ahead for
Little
Nazareno Properzi (26:19)
Mm-hmm.
Toy Launch (26:19)
Rocket Games, what do you have in mind in the next few years? you launching more product? How aggressive are you expanding the business in the next few years?
Nazareno Properzi (26:27)
Absolutely.
So our aim is to grow internationally.
Toy Launch (26:32)
Mm-hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (26:33)
So of course we want to grow also in Italy.
Toy Launch (26:36)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (26:37)
But in Italy I’d say we already reached a point that if you say Little Rocket Games, I don’t say everyone, but most of the people.
Knows us so that’s that’s a a good goal
Toy Launch (26:49)
Okay, that’s good. Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (26:53)
But if you say Little Rocket Games internationally no one knows about us yes so so and no well of course
Toy Launch (26:59)
Well, that take a while, you unless you become Asmodee. So yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (27:06)
But so yeah so our next step is to grow internationally
Toy Launch (27:12)
Hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (27:12)
And
We want to do so by increasing the number of game made by our company every year.
Toy Launch (27:22)
I see, okay.
Nazareno Properzi (27:23)
So last year we made four new games.
Toy Launch (27:26)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (27:26)
This year also we have four new games
Toy Launch (27:31)
Okay.
Nazareno Properzi (27:31)
That are coming for Essen Spiel.
Toy Launch (27:33)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (27:34)
And by the way, one of the new game is
Use the same system of One Card Dungeon. So it’s a new game with the same system.
We’re very proud of this one.
Toy Launch (27:45)
Hmm. I see.
Nazareno Properzi (27:47)
And then for next year we already have almost finished two games. Yes.
Toy Launch (27:53)
Wow, okay, okay, nice.
Nazareno Properzi (27:55)
So most likely we’re gonna have those two new games
For the first quarter of the year.
Toy Launch (28:02)
I see. I see.
Nazareno Properzi (28:03)
And then for Essen, we should have another four between four to six new games.
Toy Launch (28:09)
I see. Okay, okay. Well, quite a bit coming up. That’s a lot of work.
Nazareno Properzi (28:13)
Yeah, yeah. Well,
We really want to you know show that we can do more.
Toy Launch (28:18)
Mm-hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (28:19)
And so yeah, so we are really putting our efforts on new projects. So when I say games made by Little Rocket Games, that doesn’t
Toy Launch (28:29)
Yes.
Nazareno Properzi (28:30)
Mean that we are the designers, of course.
Toy Launch (28:33)
Yeah,
Nazareno Properzi (28:33)
I don’t know if many people knows about it. I actually start knowing it only after working in a company like Little Rocket Games is that when you give to a company your game
Toy Launch (28:46)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (28:47)
It’s not what they actually going to make.
So yeah, so that’s that’s something that many designers say, that I spoke with is I want to give my game to this company, but they wanted to change it completely, so I said no. Yes, yeah.
Toy Launch (29:03)
Ah, that’s actually very often in the industry across not just board games but it’s for toys as well.
Nazareno Properzi (29:10)
I’m also a game designer and I want to say
Toy Launch (29:12)
Mm-hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (29:13)
To other game designers, do not stop the process of making the game just because the company maybe want to change the theme or even some rules.
Toy Launch (29:23)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (29:25)
In the past we got
A game where we changed completely it was almost a different game at the end so the main mechanic was there but
Toy Launch (29:36)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (29:36)
We added the layers and changed
Toy Launch (29:38)
Hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (29:39)
The theme and the result was actually very good better than
Toy Launch (29:43)
Mmm, okay.
Nazareno Properzi (29:44)
What we received at the beginning
Toy Launch (29:46)
I see, okay.
Nazareno Properzi (29:47)
So definitely
As game designer want to say that don’t be scared of seeing your baby you know be destroyed by the company. They
Usually know what they’re doing.
Toy Launch (30:00)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay, okay. That’s actually a good segue to wrap up today’s interview. So based your experience in industry, if you have to just share one piece of advice with someone that’s also getting started within the toys and games industry, what would that be?
Nazareno Properzi (30:14)
Well definitely do not, do not pitch your game to other company for licensee.
Toy Launch (30:21)
Mm-hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (30:22)
Like a game designer. Go with the finish and polished product.
Toy Launch (30:27)
Mm-hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (30:27)
That’s probably my number one advice
Toy Launch (30:32)
Mm-hmm.
Nazareno Properzi (30:32)
We met A few very small company that
You know came to us to show a game and
Toy Launch (30:40)
Yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (30:41)
They were showing the game like it was a prototype.
Toy Launch (30:44)
Okay, yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (30:44)
And
That is probably the worst the worst way to connect to other company. If you are a company, you have to show your product as a polished exactly. Exactly. So as a polished
Toy Launch (30:55)
More professionally, yeah, more professionally.
Nazareno Properzi (31:00)
Finished product.
Toy Launch (31:02)
Yeah, okay. That’s a very good piece of advice. And for our audience, we’d love to learn a little bit more about you, your companies and your project. Where is the best place for people to find you online?
Nazareno Properzi (31:11)
So our website is littlerocketgames.com so super easy to find. But
Toy Launch (31:16)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Nazareno Properzi (31:19)
For actually looking for our new projects the easiest way to see them is actually on Board Game Geek. So
Toy Launch (31:26)
Okay, yeah.
Nazareno Properzi (31:27)
If you go on BoardGame Geek.
In Little Rocket Games you can see already our new products and our new games for the year.
Toy Launch (31:36)
I see. Okay. I’ll make sure we include that in the show note. Thank you so much for your time today, sharing your experience and your knowledge. And I also learned a few new things myself.
Nazareno Properzi (31:46)
Thank you very much.
Toy Launch (31:47)
And for our audience, thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Toy Business Unboxed podcast. I hope today’s conversation give you some practical insight and fresh inspiration for growing your own toys for game companies. This podcast is sponsored by toy launch, a leading marketing and growth partner for toys and game company.
At Toy Launch, we help brands go on Amazon, TikTok, and Shopify through full service account management, advertising, SEO, creative, catalog optimization, influencer marketing, and more. If you’re looking for a proven team to understand both the industry, toys and game industry, and e-commerce marketing inside and out, we’re here to help. If you’d like a personalized breakdown of your brand, your opportunity, your marketing strategy, schedule a free consultation session with us. Just visit toy-launch.com/schedule.
If you want to connect with other toys and game founders, join our brand new free community, Toys and Game Launchpad. You can find more information on our homepage or visit toy-launch.com/group. For more resource update and industry insight, follow us on social media. Until next time, keep innovating, keep creating, keep bringing joy through toys. This is Jason Hsieh signing off on the Toy Business Unboxed podcast. We’ll see you in the next episode. Thank you so much, everyone. Have a good one.
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