Welcome to another episode of Toy Business Unboxed Podcast. This week’s guest is Veronica Gregory, coordinator of outreach for the Center for Learning through Games and Simulations at Central Michigan University. Veronica helps run Central Michigan University Press, the only academic press in the country that publishes peer reviewed tabletop games. In this conversation, she breaks down how the press’s review process works, why designers keep the rights to their own games, and what students gain from working alongside the team.
#200: When Higher Ed Meets Tabletop Gaming – Toy Business Unboxed
Episode Highlight
- 00:42 Meet Veronica Gregory
- 02:48 Her path into games
- 05:05 What peer review means
- 09:30 The Pages of the Press
- 15:07 A day in her role
- 16:54 How many games they publish
- 19:19 Designers keep their own rights
- 25:33 Advice for newcomers
From History Classroom to Game Publishing Career
Veronica Gregory came to Central Michigan University Press through an unlikely path that started in a history classroom. As an undergraduate, she was drawn into a history major after a professor used role playing games from the Reacting to the Past Consortium, where students argue in character using real primary sources. That same professor is now her boss at the Center for Learning through Games and Simulations. After earning her master’s in history and working in childhood literacy and historic site programming, Veronica landed at the press, where she now sees games as a natural extension of the hands-on learning she has valued all along.
Inside the World’s Only Peer Reviewed Game Press
Central Michigan University Press is the only academic press in the country that publishes peer reviewed tabletop games, and Veronica walks through exactly what that process looks like. Games in the Scholarship and Lore series ideally go through three peer reviewers, a subject matter expert, someone who evaluates game mechanics, and an educator who actually uses games in a classroom. That third reviewer matters because many games in the series come with a curriculum guide built for teachers who want to use them directly in their courses. Most of these games are aimed at players 14 and older, but Veronica says college educators and casual groups both find real value in them.
Two Series, Two Different Standards
The press currently runs two distinct series with different review standards. The Art and System series, edited by Tim Hutchings of Thousand Year Old Vampire, is jury reviewed rather than peer reviewed, and it focuses on artful, experimental games like Dog Eat Dog, Princess with a Cursed Sword, and The Mountain Witch. The Scholarship and Lore series is the one that goes through full peer review and includes titles like Witch Hunt 1649 and Hydrologic Cycle. Keeping the two series separate lets the press support both bold creative experimentation and rigorously vetted educational content under one roof.
How Educators Become Game Designers
Many of the designers who publish with the press are educators themselves, which shapes how their games come together from the start. Witch Hunt 1649, designed by Dr. Martha McGill, a UK based historian specializing in the supernatural, weaves real historical text from witchcraft accusations directly into the game’s flavor text. Veronica says having a designer who already teaches the subject matter is one of the most valuable combinations the press can find, since they know how to build real content into an entertaining mechanic. Sometimes the same person designs both the game and its curriculum guide, and sometimes those roles are split between different collaborators.
Giving Students Real World Experience Through Pages of the Press
Pages of the Press is a growing student program that gives Central Michigan University students hands on experience in publishing and marketing. Last year, students traveled with the press to Gen Con to write marketing materials, manage logistics, and staff the booth, which Veronica says gave the team real support while exposing students to the wider tabletop industry. This year the program shifted to teaching a trial group of students how to play and pitch the press’s games on campus, since Veronica says sales skills turned out to be just as important as production skills. The program is still evolving, but the goal is simple, give students real experience for their resumes, whether or not they end up working in games.
A Small Team Wearing Many Hats
Central Michigan University Press runs on a core team of just four people, and Veronica’s role as coordinator of outreach touches nearly every part of the operation. She handles on campus outreach, off site events like visiting local high schools for game nights, and partnership building with libraries, stores, and hopefully board game cafes down the road. She also manages social media, marketing, and crowdfunding campaigns, splitting her time between her computer and in person events. Veronica says everyone on the small team has been welcoming and supportive, which has made an unexpected career move feel like the right one.
Why Designers Keep Their Rights
Unlike many publishers who buy a game outright and pay royalties afterward, Central Michigan University Press lets designers keep the copyright to their own games. The press handles manufacturing, crowdfunding, and retail sales, but the underlying rights always stay with the person who created the game. Veronica says this approach reflects how much creative and academic work goes into each project, and the team believes designers deserve to remain part of the process long term. It is a different arrangement than most of the industry uses, and it is one the press is proud to offer.
Two New Crowdfunding Campaigns on the Way
The press crowdfunded six games in 2025, but this year the pace is slower and more deliberate, with two campaigns currently on the calendar. The Blue Way, designed by Jason Morningstar with art by Samuel Araya, launches on BackerKit on June 16, and Line by Line, a poetry writing game by Tilak Vyas with art by Vicky Tran, follows in October. Between those two launches, the team is also preparing new games for commercial release and gearing up for GAMA Expo and Gen Con appearances later in the year. Veronica says fulfillment after a campaign ends is just as demanding as the crowdfunding push itself, which is part of why the team is deliberately keeping its slate smaller this year.
Advice for Newcomers in the Toy and Game Industry
Veronica’s advice comes from her own first year in the industry, make genuine connections and treat people with respect. She says the tabletop space has been unexpectedly welcoming, and the relationships she and her small team have built have carried them through hectic moments like last minute convention scrambles. Building a strong network is not just good for business, she says, it also helps people feel human and enjoy their work day to day. For anyone starting out, she encourages making real friendships and helping others whenever possible, since those connections are often what opens the next door.
Conclusion
Veronica Gregory’s work at Central Michigan University Press shows how far a peer reviewed, education focused approach to game publishing can go. From a rigorous review process to a designer friendly rights model and a growing student program, the press has built something genuinely different in the tabletop industry. With two new crowdfunding campaigns and a busy convention season ahead, the team is proving that academic rigor and playable, fun games are not mutually exclusive.
Connect with Veronica Gregory
If you’re interested in learning more about Central Michigan University Press or connecting with Veronica Gregory you can reach out through the following channels:
- Website: Visit Central Michigan University Press’ official website for the latest news, game updates, and more
- Linktree: Check out Central Michigan University Press’ Linktree for all links in one place, socials, content, and more
- Instagram: Follow Central Michigan University on Instagram for visual updates, game previews, and more links to their socials.
- Facebook: Follow Central Michigan University on Facebook for updates, discussions, and behind-the-scenes content.
Transcript
Jason Hsieh (00:42)
Welcome back to another episode of Toy Business Unboxed podcast. I’m your host Jason Hsieh. Today’s guest is doing something I haven’t really seen in this industry. She work in the intersection of higher education, game design and publishing. She’s also the coordinator of Outreach for Center for Learning through Games and Simulations at Central.
Michigan University, which own their own publishing company, which I haven’t heard of. So it’s a very interesting setup. I think they are also the world’s only peer review tabletop game publisher that ever existed. So thank you so much for joining us on the call today.
Veronica Gregory (01:18)
I’m really excited to be here. Thanks for having me, Jason.
Jason Hsieh (01:21)
Yes. And like I mentioned, this is a very, very interesting setup. And I was very intrigued when we first met. It’s like, I didn’t know university also run publishing company as well. So can you kind of share the background a little bit of what you guys do and how does it tie to the university curriculum?
Veronica Gregory (01:37)
Sure. So we are really unique in this space. It’s really fun to talk about who we are because it’s kind of a surprise to everybody. So
Jason Hsieh (01:44)
But yes, yeah.
Veronica Gregory (01:47)
what we do as a press is deeply connected to what we do academically. So at
Jason Hsieh (01:51)
Okay.
Veronica Gregory (01:51)
Central Michigan University, we have something called the Center for Learning Through Games and Simulations. And you can think of that like an umbrella for a couple different things that we do. So
Jason Hsieh (02:01)
Okay.
Veronica Gregory (02:01)
through the center, we have an academic program, we have a minor in game design thinking for students.
But we also, in a manner of speaking, run the press through the Center for Learning through Games and Simulations too. So we have the academic wing, but then the press is really something where students theoretically are welcome to submit games to us, but for the most part, we work with outside designers who submit game designs with us. We play test them, we crowd fund them, we produce them, and we ultimately sell them as well. But that’s what’s happening at the press. So it’s connected to…
other things that are happening at Central and a desire to be in that space. that’s some really cool things to talk about.
Jason Hsieh (02:38)
I see. I see.
see. So first, before we get into the university on publishing company, how do even got into this program? Like what is your journey?
Veronica Gregory (02:48)
that’s a good story. So I was actually a student here at Central Michigan University. I got my major in history. And the reason why I chose to do that was because people were playing games in my history class. Yeah,
Jason Hsieh (02:59)
Okay, okay.
Veronica Gregory (03:02)
so one of my former professors is actually now my boss, so that works out pretty well. But he was one of my history professors and used these games from the Reacting to the Past Consortium.
They’re role-playing games for students to take on the roles of people in history, sometimes composite characters, but you’re looking
Jason Hsieh (03:17)
I see.
Veronica Gregory (03:17)
at real primary sources, you’re making arguments in character, and you
Jason Hsieh (03:21)
Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (03:22)
have this drive to play your character. So it’s the best
Jason Hsieh (03:25)
I see.
Veronica Gregory (03:26)
of learning, but also playing, and
Jason Hsieh (03:28)
playing, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Veronica Gregory (03:29)
then you get really into the topic too, because you’re like, I want to make the best argument. So you’re like, I want to beat that other person in that debate.
Jason Hsieh (03:33)
the
Veronica Gregory (03:36)
Because of that though, that led me into other avenues in history and
Jason Hsieh (03:40)
Okay.
Veronica Gregory (03:40)
from that point after I graduated, I got my masters in history as well because I loved it so much and that deep thinking. Games
Jason Hsieh (03:45)
Yeah. Okay.
Veronica Gregory (03:47)
really activate your brain in a different way and show you how interesting topics can be because maybe you haven’t considered them from that angle before. And I really like the idea. I think education is very important. I think it’s vital for humans and sometimes education works best for people when it’s delivered in a different format. So,
I worked with a childhood nonprofit literacy for a very long time and I still do some volunteer work with them. They’re Power Book Bags. They’re all about reading and making sure kids have materials to read, to write, to play with little puppets because that’s the beginning of how you’re learning as a kid. Play is the way that you learn. But then
Jason Hsieh (04:19)
Yeah, yeah. Yes.
Veronica Gregory (04:22)
I also worked at a historic site for a long time. I guess
Jason Hsieh (04:25)
Yes.
Veronica Gregory (04:25)
two seasons, but it was nice and long. And when people come to physical sites of learning like that, they have an opportunity to learn in a different format.
And games,
Jason Hsieh (04:33)
Hmm.
Veronica Gregory (04:34)
I see as sort of an extension of that. It’s a way you can experience lessons and you’re having human interactions with people at the same time, so it really makes things stick. And it’s more than just like academic concepts wrapped up in something that seems cool. It’s like if you actually weave the learning material into the game itself, into the mechanics, it’s something that can be really powerful for education.
and it’s a way that can draw other people into the space who maybe didn’t expect to be learning as they’re playing, but then it’s really something powerful for
Jason Hsieh (05:02)
I see, I see, I see. And I see most people have never really heard of a peer review board game publisher. Can you kind of walk us through
Veronica Gregory (05:07)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jason Hsieh (05:09)
exactly how you work on the university setting?
Veronica Gregory (05:12)
Absolutely. So when we say we’re peer-reviewed, so to be clear, at Central Michigan University Press, we have currently two series of games. One series is Juried Reviewed, and that is the Art and System series. The editor is Tim Hutchings of Thousand Year Old Vampire game. Those works are not our peer-reviewed ones, but they’re jury-reviewed, like beautiful works of art, like they are. Our other series, though, the one that we’re focusing on in this conversation is the Scholarship and Lore series. Those games go through peer review.
So
if you’re in the world of academia, you’re familiar with peer review or something where if you’re submitting an article, a book, you want other experts in your area to look at it and make sure that it’s vetted for content. So with our games, what we do is we ideally send them to three different peer reviewers. We send the games, yeah, so it depends on like what sort of area you’re looking at with the games too, because we have lots of historical games. We also have a game in the STEM field. We also have a game that’s related to creative writing and vampires, so like naturally.
who’s gonna be your expert on that. But generally what happens is like, sometimes people
Jason Hsieh (06:12)
Okay.
Veronica Gregory (06:14)
ask that like how can you get somebody to the, but there’s other things in that game that we can peer review it for. We didn’t have any vampires come forward, unfortunately.
Jason Hsieh (06:19)
Yeah, I see. Yeah, I see. Okay.
Veronica Gregory (06:26)
So we send a game to somebody who knows the content. So if it’s a historian, a scientist, creative writer, things like that, that is the first peer reviewer. Then
Jason Hsieh (06:32)
Yeah. OK.
Veronica Gregory (06:34)
we send the game to somebody who knows games and knows what makes a game tick, knows good game mechanics, because we want all of our games in that series, even though they have the capacity to be used for educational purposes, we want them to also translate into tabletop casual spaces too. So the second
Jason Hsieh (06:50)
Thank you.
Veronica Gregory (06:51)
peer reviewer,
is just to make sure it’s a fun game to play and it’s
a rewarding experience. But lots of our games do address challenging topics. So if we’re talking about like fun, it might not always be light, but the mechanics are compelling. The things that
Jason Hsieh (07:02)
yeah.
Veronica Gregory (07:02)
you’re learning about and thinking about are really deep and interesting. So they definitely have a market in that space too. And then from there, we ideally send it to a third peer reviewer who is an educator who uses games in their teaching space because what…
Jason Hsieh (07:16)
Okay, okay, okay.
Veronica Gregory (07:17)
One of the coolest
Jason Hsieh (07:17)
I see.
Veronica Gregory (07:18)
things that in this job and in this little subset of the games world is that you run into actually quite a lot of educators who are interested in using games in a teaching space and they know that it’s effective and they’re looking for more tools in that area. So
Jason Hsieh (07:31)
Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (07:31)
for the games in that series, we also produce curriculum guides for the educators who explicitly
Jason Hsieh (07:35)
I assume you’re right.
Veronica Gregory (07:36)
want to take those games into a teaching space. And most of our games we aim at ages 14 and above, just demographic.
But we know college educators can use these games. know that you can ideally take them and just play them in a big group of people too if you just want to try something new. So there’s all sorts of ways that our peer-reviewed games benefit people because you get a good game and you also get good content inside of that as well.
Jason Hsieh (08:00)
I see, see. And how does that change the whole design process of the game compared to just purely making the game purely for fun because you’re also making it more educational and kind of tie the whole curriculum to it? Does it change the process a little bit?
Veronica Gregory (08:14)
I have to say, I think it varies based on the game, but I do know that lots of the designers who have published games with us are actually educators. So I think
Jason Hsieh (08:23)
okay.
Veronica Gregory (08:24)
their mindset and their skill set and maybe their goals are behind a lot of what they’re doing as they’re putting together that game. So for example, Witch Hunt 1649 is a game that recently we recently released. It’s commercially available now and its creator is Dr. Martha McGill.
And she’s a professor over in the UK and her specialty is the supernatural. So as part of making this game, she did historical research and included little bits of real historic text on the cards in the game to It’s flavor text, but it’s also something that you can learn from. So I think having
Jason Hsieh (08:56)
Hmm. Okay.
Veronica Gregory (08:57)
a designer who is an educator is really one of the most ideal combinations because then you know, you can have in the back of your mind.
I want to teach these
Jason Hsieh (09:05)
Mm-hmm.
Veronica Gregory (09:06)
concepts, but you also know how to weave them into an entertaining game.
Jason Hsieh (09:10)
I see.
Veronica Gregory (09:10)
sometimes the curriculum guide designers are the same people as the game designers, and sometimes they’re different. whether or not it starts off that way, we can make sure that in the end, the game, again, performs well in both spaces. Sometimes games come to us and they don’t quite meet those requirements, and that’s okay. They’re still fantastic games, but the ones we’re publishing are really made with that in mind.
Jason Hsieh (09:30)
I
see. Okay. Okay. Okay. And I know the university also run a program called pages of press, where the student
Veronica Gregory (09:36)
Now we do!
Jason Hsieh (09:36)
actually work on real life, like publishing or marketing tasks. Can you kind of tell our listener a little bit about that program. How does it work and what does the student actually do in that program?
Veronica Gregory (09:48)
Yeah, absolutely. So the fun thing about pages of the press is that it is something that has actually been evolving over the past couple of years. Last year, we were able to take some students to GenCon with us. It was a fantastic experience for
Jason Hsieh (09:58)
Okay.
Veronica Gregory (09:59)
them and we really benefited from their help too. so
Jason Hsieh (10:02)
Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (10:03)
at that time, we had a student working with us writing marketing materials and helping us with social media. We also had a student who was really our lead in the logistics department. She really saved our skin a couple of times. She was fantastic.
Jason Hsieh (10:14)
Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (10:15)
And we had other students who came along and they helped us sell our games. We had a table last year at Gen Con where we just talked about our academic programs. There were fantastic ambassadors there. And sometimes we also just needed people to run things like, my gosh, we sold out of this game or we need some more of these flyers. And they were fantastic at just zipping back and forth and really supporting the whole team and
Jason Hsieh (10:35)
you
Veronica Gregory (10:35)
also getting exposure to what Gen Con is like, like
Jason Hsieh (10:39)
I think.
Veronica Gregory (10:39)
as an extension of this wonderful, crazy tabletop game industry.
Just seeing all the opportunities and all the different ways you can make games and all the people who are involved. So that’s what we did last year and that wasn’t the official pages program, but that’s definitely in its DNA. We’re still evolving the program. So what we did this year is we took a trial group of students and we taught them how to play our games and we gave them opportunities on campus to practice teaching games to others because something that we learned last year. It’s like you have to know sales. So that’s like one way to do it.
Jason Hsieh (11:07)
okay, okay, okay, okay. Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (11:11)
So we’re still refining the program too. We have places we want to take it in the future to make it more robust. But I know the students and the staff have also learned a ton from working with them. And we’re just really grateful for their interest too.
Jason Hsieh (11:22)
So is the
goal of the program try to like encourage them to get into have a career in the board game industry? Or is it more to encourage them to run their own publishing company? What is like the goal?
Veronica Gregory (11:35)
That’s a question. So I think what we want with Pages of the Press and just any of our experiences that we offer to students is give them some real world experience that they can put on their resumes and help them with whatever future career they like. So
Jason Hsieh (11:47)
Thank
Veronica Gregory (11:47)
the person who worked with us, the student last summer, was somebody who is now pursuing her master’s in creative writing, I believe, or English. So writing things, putting together our
Jason Hsieh (11:55)
okay.
Veronica Gregory (11:57)
press releases, that was super important and very relevant to what she’s
Jason Hsieh (11:59)
Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (12:00)
going to do in the future.
Our
Jason Hsieh (12:01)
I see.
Veronica Gregory (12:01)
logistics intern also was doing something in that area, so we are really happy to be a space where students can get that real world experience, even if they’re not thinking about going into games. We
do
Jason Hsieh (12:11)
Hmm.
Veronica Gregory (12:12)
hope that they’ll consider it because we could certainly use their help and it would be nice to have more young blood in that area too and minds coming from the specific program. But we want to give them real world experiences for their resume. I think that’s really what we want to do at the end of the day. Whether or not they’re going into games.
maybe a certain type of marketing or business, that’s something that we hope to do as we grow this program and go forward.
Jason Hsieh (12:32)
Got it, got it, got it, got it, got it. And I know the university also offer it as a major or is it like a minor program for game design yourself?
Veronica Gregory (12:39)
We do. So currently it’s a minor. We’ll see what happens in the future, but it is a really, really cool program. We talk to students about how it is actually a pretty small program within the university, and it’s intentionally small so that you can fit it with
Jason Hsieh (12:50)
Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (12:53)
pretty much any major you would like. We know that, and I’m sure lots of us have seen in the world today, games in all sorts of spaces. One of
Jason Hsieh (13:00)
Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (13:00)
my niche interests is looking at the themed attractions industry, and you see more gamification happening there.
You see sitting in little rides and interacting with spaces through games. If you go to museums, there’s all sorts of potential there for interactives in that space or even scavenger hunts that blow your mind and do something different. And on the other side of things, well, you know,
Jason Hsieh (13:18)
That’s it.
Veronica Gregory (13:20)
games are also used for corporate training and therapy. And not to mention
Jason Hsieh (13:22)
True,
Veronica Gregory (13:25)
education, which is near and dear to our hearts. But the idea is that with the Game Science Thinking Minor, we’re giving students a toolkit. And what they do with that toolkit is up to them.
but it should be something that also sets them apart. We really want to make sure that our students are going forth into the world with applicable experience and concepts and something that is useful to them. And it’s definitely unique. And it’s something that employers and future audiences are going to be looking for as well.
Jason Hsieh (13:49)
Yeah, I think what you are doing with the university program is actually very innovative because I think what is really lacking in the industry is the industry itself is getting old. It’s not enough of newcomers getting into the industry. It’s just a whole bunch of guys in their 60s or 50s running the show pretty much. So that’s not enough. feel like younger people getting in from a fresh perspective to
like, okay,
Veronica Gregory (14:11)
Mm.
Jason Hsieh (14:12)
this is how we should run a publishing company in 2026.
instead of this is how I have been doing it in the last 20 years. I think like having a fresh kind of perspective and also introduce the industry to more people is very, very important. So the industry itself can actually grow and really kind of shine like kind of go through different evolution itself. So do you agree?
Veronica Gregory (14:34)
I love that idea. think lots of students sometimes don’t think of games as a place where they can have a career or they don’t realize how many different, like
Jason Hsieh (14:40)
Yeah, exactly.
Veronica Gregory (14:42)
even within that, like you need marketing, you need logistics, you need production, you need people doing the budgets, you people designing games, all sorts of things like that. So it’s really wonderful to introduce
Jason Hsieh (14:48)
Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (14:53)
them to that space and then also learn from them, like what they would like and maybe seeing from that point, like what the industry is going to look like.
Jason Hsieh (15:00)
Yeah. But for your own role, what does your day to day look like? Because I know you are also wearing a lot of hat when the publishing
Veronica Gregory (15:07)
Yes.
Jason Hsieh (15:07)
kind of company.
Veronica Gregory (15:08)
It’s exciting. I love that this job is an adventure. So we are a small but mighty team here. I’m of a core group of four that keeps Central
Jason Hsieh (15:13)
Yeah. Okay.
Veronica Gregory (15:16)
Michigan University Press running. And so what I do as the coordinator of outreach, is that I work on campus. I do outreach to students here locally, at least
Jason Hsieh (15:25)
Okay.
Veronica Gregory (15:26)
local to the campus.
Jason Hsieh (15:27)
Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (15:27)
We
also do sometimes off-site events where we were actually lucky enough to be invited to a Michigan high school. So later tonight
we’re going to be heading out, me and one of the co-directors are going to be driving out to that location and we’re going to be part of their game night. So we’re happy to take part in off-site events as well. We’re also
Jason Hsieh (15:41)
Oh, okay. Nice. Okay. I see. I see.
Veronica Gregory (15:45)
looking, yeah, we’re really excited about the partnerships we can make. So that’s another thing that I do.
Jason Hsieh (15:48)
Okay.
Veronica Gregory (15:50)
I try to find more places, more homes for our games.
welcoming. libraries are somewhere where our games naturally find a spot. Connecting with more educators is important, even
Jason Hsieh (15:55)
So, think you can do it.
Veronica Gregory (15:58)
just different stores, especially in Michigan. And I know a pet project of mine is to get us into some board game cafes. I think I would really love to see our games there. So just
Jason Hsieh (16:06)
okay, okay, yeah. I see,
Veronica Gregory (16:08)
kind of looking for more spaces like that. And in between, I do our social media and our marketing. I help with the crowdfunding campaigns. So I spend
Jason Hsieh (16:13)
me.
Veronica Gregory (16:15)
a lot of time at my computer too, but I really like talking with people. And this job, this industry has been so nice and
It’s honestly not somewhere I expected that I would be, but everybody that I’ve talked to, like all the more experienced people who have perhaps been here a very long time or who are even just as new as myself, they’ve been very kind and helpful and very welcoming. So I’ve really appreciated that. It’s a pleasure to keep working there.
Jason Hsieh (16:38)
I see. So how many different game has the department published so far? And what is the cadence? Like how many are you publishing a year? Like are you publishing like crazy or how fast is the publishing cycle? Because I think your kind of process is actually a lot more in depth than the regular publishing company, because you went through the
Veronica Gregory (16:54)
my gosh.
Jason Hsieh (16:54)
peer review and send it to so many different experts where it’s a regular publishing company. They usually do a lot of game testing, obviously, but definitely
Veronica Gregory (17:02)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Hsieh (17:02)
not as in-depth as your process.
Veronica Gregory (17:05)
I can’t speak to other companies, but I know that we are still trying to find our cadence. We
Jason Hsieh (17:09)
Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (17:09)
were really, really lucky last year. I think in the course of 2025, we did Keep the Faith, Witch Hunt, Making History, and then we started the whole new series of art and systems. So it’s Doggy Dog, Princess with the Cursed Sword, and The Mountain Witch. all in all, six games we crowdfunded last year. I don’t think we’re going for that this year, but it’s just kind of…
Jason Hsieh (17:23)
Oh okay.
Veronica Gregory (17:28)
It’s dependent on what kind of games come through and what we have the bandwidth to do because we want to make sure we do everything well. as
Jason Hsieh (17:31)
I see. Yeah. Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (17:36)
people in crowdfunding know, it’s not just getting things out there and making your crowdfunding goal, but it’s also fulfillment afterwards.
Jason Hsieh (17:42)
Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (17:43)
So we have multiple different things going at any point in time, but this year we have two games that will be crowdfunding that are on the roster and we’ll have other ones that are coming through production and will be available for commercial release. So we’ll be
Jason Hsieh (17:53)
I see.
Veronica Gregory (17:54)
crowdfunding…
The Blue Way by Jason Morningstar with art by Samuel Raya this June on the 16th and then in October will be crowdfunding Line by Line by Tilak Vyas with art by Vicky Tran and that should be I’m really excited for both of those games. So we currently just have two on our list but during those periods of time we’re also marketing other things where we’re talking about where you can find our new games, we’re trying to come up with some new ways to talk about what we do and of course we’re going to Gen Con which we’ll
Jason Hsieh (18:22)
Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (18:23)
probably…
all of July is prepping, but it’s a fun time. Yeah.
Jason Hsieh (18:25)
I see, I see. Of course,
I see. So what does the growth look like if you look into like, let’s say one year, three years down the road, are you focusing on expanding the catalog? Obviously reaching out to more communities, building more partnerships.
Veronica Gregory (18:38)
Mm-hmm.
Jason Hsieh (18:38)
Like what are some of the big initiative you’re currently working on?
Veronica Gregory (18:41)
that’s a point. So we are in a unique position as essentially kind of a startup connected to a university. So that determines some of what we can do. And we want to make sure that we are always prioritizing what’s going on with our students and woking up our program there and of course recruiting more people to the minor and then hopefully providing more opportunities for students to work with us. We would love to do
that.
Jason Hsieh (19:02)
Thank
Veronica Gregory (19:02)
So those are some of our goals.
But then it’s amazing seeing the games that are submitted to the press, so it would be really wonderful to publish some more of those too. So we want to do well with our current obligations, and we want to make sure that as we move forward, we keep the door open and we just do the best we can to grow in this
Jason Hsieh (19:19)
I see. And you mentioned earlier, you work with mostly external designer. Would you also have a designer inside a team, the four people team that you just mentioned?
Veronica Gregory (19:27)
We have some local partners that have done graphic design for some of our games. So Kate Sullivan of All Access Signs, that’s a Mount Pleasant
Jason Hsieh (19:35)
yeah.
Veronica Gregory (19:36)
group. She’s helped us a lot with graphic design and she actually did the graphic design for Making History. So
it was just very cool. But aside from that, we do have one CMU professor who published a game with us. That’s Dr. Wendy Robertson. Her game is Hydrologic Cycle. It’s very cool.
Jason Hsieh (19:49)
Yeah. Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (19:50)
But other than that, we have external designers submitting
their proposals to us and then we play test it. And again, lots of those designers are coming from an area of academia. I think there’s a circle that knows each other and it’s really cool because then the word about us gets out a little bit more and helps us find our niche. But students and other faculty and anyone is really welcome to submit a game to us. We really hope someday it will be super cool to have a student publish a game with us. It just hasn’t happened yet because the program is still really new.
Jason Hsieh (20:16)
It’s still fairly new. see. And
how does that process look like? Does it also go through a peer review process to do the gameplay as well to decide which one goes through the publishing stage?
Veronica Gregory (20:28)
That is a very good question. So we do, we take it through a couple different rounds of play testing. We try to find different audiences to play our games before we even take them to peer review. So we do an internal play testing. So a game will come in through our portal and it’s always kind of exciting. It’s like, there’s a new game. What is it going to be? And it comes through as a print and play format. So then we print it out and we cut it out. And we play in our families, we take it to our friends. And then we also do community play testing nights that we call break our games nights.
Jason Hsieh (20:57)
Okay,
okay,
Veronica Gregory (20:58)
that’s one of my favorite things that we do actually, because it’s another opportunity for students to get hands-on experience in the world of game development and design. They actually
Jason Hsieh (21:06)
Hmm
Veronica Gregory (21:06)
step into the process with us and it is very vital that they come and they help us with these events so they can see what an unfinished game looks like and you know, maybe it’ll make them feel a little bit better about what they’re doing in their classes.
Jason Hsieh (21:15)
Yeah. I see.
Veronica Gregory (21:19)
But they can also
Jason Hsieh (21:19)
Okay.
Veronica Gregory (21:19)
see, you know you’re kicking the tires on this game. You’re saying, you know, this didn’t work so well and that’s okay. And maybe someday, you know, it’ll be fully developed and end up on a shelf and they’ll know that they had a role in getting it there. And we’ve also made these break our games nights available to just anybody in the community who wants to bring their games in.
Yeah, we’ve had some independent designers come in like Jacob Way of friendly skeleton games. He brings his games in sometimes and that’s really fun.
And the students again get more experience, they play more games. So if you’re a game nerd and you’re anywhere in the Mount Pleasant area, you’re always
Jason Hsieh (21:51)
Mm-hmm.
Veronica Gregory (21:52)
welcome to join us and bring your games too. But it’s a really cool way that we connect with our community and we also develop our games at the same time. So after that point, when we gather feedback from those Break Our Games nights, we send them to our designers and then take a closer look at the games and we send them to peer review.
And after they go through peer review, they go to our editorial board. And the editorial board can recommend that they continue for publication,
Jason Hsieh (22:12)
Okay.
Veronica Gregory (22:16)
they go back for some more edits, or it’s just not a fit for our press. And some games are like that, and that’s okay. They’re wonderful games. We just have a very specific mission.
Jason Hsieh (22:23)
Is it also like an internal
scoring system that’s like one to a hundred, like it fit all the criteria, then you pass kind of like that, or is it more of a vague kind of depends on the person that’s looking at it. Like how rigid is the qualification process? That’s what I’m trying to understand.
Veronica Gregory (22:39)
That is a
really good question. think over time, undoubtedly, it has evolved as we’ve gotten bigger and we have new questions to consider with our games. Like,
Jason Hsieh (22:44)
Yeah. Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (22:47)
how adult do we want our games to be? Or are there things we don’t want to publish? Or this
Jason Hsieh (22:49)
Hmm. Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (22:52)
is really cruel and experimental, we have the capacity to crowdfund that at this point in time. So
Jason Hsieh (22:56)
Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (22:56)
it’s really dependent upon the game, and honestly, I’m not a voting member of the editorial boards, I can’t tell you.
It’s comprised of a group of experts. So we have educators in that group. We actually have, we’re very, very proud to have Liz Davidson from Beyond Solitaire is on our editorial board. Super cool. And so they are bringing their experience in the academic world, but also in the world of using games to educate and to entertain. So make sure that we really find the games that will fit best with our mission, because that’s what we have at the heart of everything.
Jason Hsieh (23:25)
I see. Yeah. It sounds like a very robust process. And how many games
Veronica Gregory (23:28)
Yeah, yeah.
Jason Hsieh (23:29)
do usually get every single month? I just wondering.
Veronica Gregory (23:32)
That also varies. We opened
Jason Hsieh (23:33)
that’s okay.
Veronica Gregory (23:34)
up a new system for processing games, so prior to that, I don’t know, because it would kind of just be emailed to somebody or other and like, hey, look at my game. But sometimes, you know, honestly, I want to say average, maybe one a month. We might have more than that some months, but especially as more people figure out who we are or in the wake of going to the Game Manufacturers Expo this year, I know we had a couple more game submissions. So it’s just a matter of people discovering us and then they just kind of submit it as they can.
Jason Hsieh (24:01)
I see, I see, I see. And I have a question about the business arrangement. Let’s just say if you do select one of the designer from the outside, do you just do like a regular licensing deal or royalty deal like everyone else in industry? Or do you have a special arrangement with the designer that you chose the game and decide to go with publishing their game at the end?
Veronica Gregory (24:19)
that’s an excellent question. So I will tell you what I’ve heard from the people who handle the actual agreements. That’s not me. So what I’ve
Jason Hsieh (24:25)
okay. I see.
Veronica Gregory (24:27)
heard is that what we do is we really try to prioritize our designers’ rights. So actually, all of our designers own the copyrights to their game. We have the rights to sell them and we help
Jason Hsieh (24:36)
okay. Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (24:38)
them. We manufacture the game, we work with partners, and then we arrange for the crowdfunding and we can sell them here. Other retailers can sell them as well.
But at the end of the day, the designer still owns the rights to their games, which we feel is very important. So that’s
Jason Hsieh (24:51)
Okay.
Veronica Gregory (24:52)
something that we’re very proud of as well.
Jason Hsieh (24:53)
Yeah, that’s actually a different arrangement than most of the other
Veronica Gregory (24:56)
Yeah, yeah.
Jason Hsieh (24:57)
people in the industry. Usually they would just buy it outright and pay the loyalty on the backend.
Veronica Gregory (25:02)
Now, we know how important it is to own your work. You know, as people in academia and just creatives in general, it can be such a big part of who you are and so much work has gone into that. So people
Jason Hsieh (25:11)
Good.
Veronica Gregory (25:12)
deserve to be part of the process. So we also try to keep in touch with our designers and make sure that we keep up the relationships too.
Jason Hsieh (25:19)
I see, I see, I see. Thank you so much for sharing all that. And as well kind of toward the end of today’s interview here, if you have to share one piece of advice with someone that is getting started within the game, toys and game industry, what would that be?
Veronica Gregory (25:33)
this actually flows really nicely into what I was just talking about. So as a person who’s been relatively new to this industry, this is kind of, this is the end of my first year learning things and learning the ropes.
Jason Hsieh (25:42)
Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (25:42)
And it can be a lot, it can be so much. And if you’re
Jason Hsieh (25:45)
Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (25:45)
open to it, it’s really amazing. And it’s the new frontier for expressing ideas and making partnerships. And it’s really nice to see people connecting over like analog gaming. Digital gaming is also amazing. And it
Jason Hsieh (25:56)
Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (25:58)
can be another way that people connect.
But in this era, I think where lots of people are feeling lonely, we’ve especially heard that lots of students are feeling lonely, playing games really brings people together and emphasizes how important connections are. So I
Jason Hsieh (26:09)
Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (26:10)
think if I had one piece of advice, it would be make connections when you can, make them genuine, make friends, and as much as you can pull a good group of people around you, because the people who are your friends, your good connections that you foster, the people you treat with respect, and you try to help back.
Those are the people who help you get your foot in the door and help you move your projects forward or whatever else you’re doing. I mentioned we’re a really small team here and we need all four of us to make things happen and the bonds that we’ve created through that have also really sustained us through some trying times like hustling things into a convention hall or trying to make things happen at the last minute. the connections that you make with people are undoubtedly a
good business idea, but also for you as a person in business who needs to thrive and feel like a human and enjoy your job, it’s really important to make good human connections. So that would be my piece of advice.
Jason Hsieh (27:02)
I see. Okay. Thank you so much for sharing that. And for our audience,
Veronica Gregory (27:05)
No,
Jason Hsieh (27:05)
I would love to learn more about the university, the program that you offer, where is the best place for people to find you guys online.
Veronica Gregory (27:11)
Is it alright if I share my Linktree link? I think that will probably have everything that people need in there.
Jason Hsieh (27:16)
I can include it in the show note, but if there’s a website that, you know,
Veronica Gregory (27:18)
Okay, sure. A good
place to start would be if you go to the Central Michigan University website and you look for the Center for Learning Through Games and Simulations that will tell you more about what we do in the academic sector. You can also find us on our social media pages, which kind of talk about everything that we’re doing. I can give you those in a minute. But if you’re looking for more about the press, can go to CMICHPRESS.COM, CMISHPRESS.COM,
Jason Hsieh (27:45)
Okay.
Veronica Gregory (27:46)
or
our different social medias. I’ll just give you the Facebook for right now, because it’s a bit of a mouthful and you can find the link tree from there.
But our Facebook is the CMU Center for Learning Through Games and Simulations. we
Jason Hsieh (27:57)
Okay, I see.
Veronica Gregory (27:59)
really appreciate it. We’re also on Blue Sky and Instagram and YouTube and TikTok and threads and Discord. So come find
Jason Hsieh (28:03)
Yeah, okay. Yeah.
Veronica Gregory (28:06)
us.
Jason Hsieh (28:06)
Okay. Got it. Got it. I’ll make sure we put that in the show note as well. So, but thank you so much for your time today and sharing your experience and your journey within the toys and games industry with us.
Veronica Gregory (28:16)
I’ve really enjoyed it. Thanks for having me on, Jason.
Jason Hsieh (28:18)
Thank you. And thank you for our audience for tuning into this episode of Toy Business Unboxed podcast. I hope today’s conversation give you some practical insight and fresh inspiration for growing your own toys and game brands. This podcast is sponsored by Toy Launch, a leading marketing and growth partner for toys and game company. At Toy Launch, we help brands scale on Amazon and beyond through full service account management, advertising, SEO, creative, catalog optimization, influencer marketing, and more. If you are looking for a proven team that understand both the
e-commerce digital marketing and also the toys and game industry, we are here to help. If you’d a personal breakdown of your brand, opportunity and the best next step, you can schedule a free consultation session with us. Just visit toy-launch.com/schedule. If you want to connect with other toys and game founders, join our free community at Toy and Games Launchpad. It is our free Facebook group. For more resource, update and industry insight, us anytime at our homepage, toy-launch.com.
Until next time, keep innovating, keep creating, keep bringing joy through toys. This is Jason Hsieh signing off on the Toy Business Unboxed Podcast. We will see you in the next episode. Thank you so much, everyone. Have a good one.
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