How To Survive Solo Game Publishing in The Toy Industry

Jason Hsieh (00:42)
Welcome back to another episode of Toy Business Unboxed Podcast. Today we have our guest James, who is an artist that turned his love of games into a solo publishing success story from winning top honors at Gen Con to having his art being featured in popular RPGs. James really have built a creative career before stepping into the world of publishing. His first self-published game, Zombie Survival Infection, not only just founded within the first 24 hours, but also his expansion was also founded in just under an hour as well.

So James is going to share some of the reality of one man operations so far from design to marketing and all the other aspects and also the lesson he have learned along the way. Thank you so much for joining our podcast today, James.

James Cole (01:24)
Hey, thank you for having me.

Jason Hsieh (01:26)
Yeah, so first of all, kind of looking back in your journey, what makes you decide to start this company and the game that you currently have?

James Cole (01:34)
I was in a few games and I love games, but I just realized I had a good idea and nobody was buying it, but I really didn’t try to sell it anyways. And ⁓ I was like, you know what, I could do this. I have the organization skills, I have the art skills, I have the graphic design skills. I was already working some product development and my place employment.

I like, I can do this. I see. Let’s make the jump. Yeah.

Jason Hsieh (01:59)
I see.

And where did the idea behind the first game came from?

James Cole (02:05)
I love zombies. I love the genre. So I’ve loved you know, since the eighties. you know, watching movies like Return of the Living Dead and stuff like that. I was always been a passion. then growing up, I’d actually did some artwork for cannibal corpse flyers. So, you know, they were a death metal band that have a very heavy zombie influence, so you know.

I did that, I enjoyed it and I was like, I just wanna do more of this.

Jason Hsieh (02:31)
So I see, see. How will you say your particular art background give you like an edge when you’re starting your own publishing company?

James Cole (02:39)
Well, I joined a bunch of, you know, game design groups and stuff like that. And I just see everybody their woes are like the cost of art, or they would get an unreliable artist who, you know, was doing great work and then just disappeared and stuff like that. you know, I looked at that and I did the math and was like, ooh, wow, okay, I’m gonna save a lot of money. And I will tell you I actually did try to launch another game.

Jason Hsieh (02:56)
Yeah.

James Cole (03:06)
Okay. That I was gonna bring on a bunch of artist friends. They were friends, but they still wanted to get paid. And of course I wanted to pay them, but man, my funding goal was so much higher because I had to pay all these other people and then you know, I had the zombie game, I already had half the art done and I was like, you know what? if I buckle down, I can finish this art. I can do it all myself and

it’s gonna save me a lot. And ⁓ I’ll also have full control. So yeah, I just basically didn’t do anything for about a year and a half, but crank out people getting attacked by zombies or stuff like that.

Jason Hsieh (03:31)
True.

that’s how long it took you that actually that was one of the follow-up question I was about to ask

James Cole (03:44)
Yeah. Well some of the art, like we got the art on the back like this. Man, I did twenty-five years ago. So all I had to do was kind of refresh it. So yeah, some of the art actually in there is pretty old. I rehashed one of my actual my cannibal corpse flyers, one of the more infamous ones was whoop there it is. Was just a hand reaching out of the grave.

And the hand was holding on to another dismembered arm. And so I decided to do that a throwback because without that influence I probably would never be here. So I also added that and, you know, altered the original art and refreshed it. So

Jason Hsieh (04:24)
I see, I see, I see. So that helps save some time, but that’s still a really long process, right? design. Oh, yeah. Like you have a lot of unique illustration that comes with the art games itself.

James Cole (04:35)
while I was getting ready for the campaign and while the campaign was ramping up, I was still cranking out more artwork. So by the time it launched, I had all of the art that wasn’t going to be ⁓ custom art that I did for, you know, top tier backers. So by the time I launched it was ready except for I still had to do like I think it was thirty five pieces or something like that. So

Jason Hsieh (05:00)
That’s still quite a bit.

James Cole (05:01)
Yeah. But I think there’s what, it’s like 98 or 96 pieces of unique art that were in the first Kickstarter. So I did already have 60 done.

Jason Hsieh (05:12)
Okay, okay, okay, okay. I see, I see, see. And well, I want to go into the game a little bit for those of our audience that haven’t heard of your particular game. Can you describe how the game’s being played, the rule, for the audience, what to expect if they want to try one?

James Cole (05:27)
Yeah. so the game is called Zombie Survival Infection. It is with the current expansion, it’s two to eight players. the core game’s two to six. ages fourteen and up takes about forty-five minutes to an hour and a half, you know, two hours if you get a full table of eight. the game is a co-op until it’s not game.

right. So every player controls their own camp of survivors during the zombie apocalypse. Yeah. And what you do to each other is going to be just as important as what the undead do to you. So if you want to think about it in terms of zombie stories, it’s very much like The Walking Dead. Yeah. So, you know, where you rely on the other camps at points and then you also go to war with the other camps at points. Because in the end

It is the the the win condition is to be the last camp standing. however, if you get knocked out early, you don’t sit there bored because one of the things I hate in games is you know, if you get knocked out early, you’re just sitting there bored. But if you get knocked out early, you come back as the undead and they have their own win condition, which of course is kill all humans. So

The zombies also, unlike the humans, cooperate. So if the zombies can knock out the last two players at the same time so there is no one person standing, yeah, the zombies win. And every zombie at the table shares that win condition. So a smart player is gonna realize you don’t wanna knock somebody out of the game early because all you did was make a bigger problem for yourself. ⁓

Jason Hsieh (06:52)
I see, okay.

Yes, that’s true, yes.

James Cole (07:03)
And yeah, and for me, this really like this is the heart of the theme. If there’s less camps of humans, that means there’s more zombies now, and the zombies have less targets. Yeah. So you’re the master of your own destiny at points and it also gives somewhat of a catch up mechanic because you’re not gonna knock somebody out too early. You’re gonna try to string them along and make them feel like they have a shot.

You use cards for your actions. we have chips for our resources, and the chips represent So humans are our currency in the game. So we have five tens and ones. when anybody dies, they get flipped to their zombie side and they are no longer a resource.

So you know, in the scope of the game, we’re not making humans fast enough for them to be considered. You know what I mean? So the amount of resources that start at the game are that’s it. So a little a fun thing that happens during the game is you’ll see everything turns from orange eventually to green, and you realize the people you have are the people you have. So you better hold on to them tightly.

Jason Hsieh (08:11)
Yes.

James Cole (08:11)
we also have dice for represent our randomness, but also helps with kind of the co-op part of the game. So on your turn, you will always roll the base die, which you know it that plus some bonuses will be how many people you acquire, or if it’s the end game, it’s how many you lose. But each phase also has a bonus die that matches the color of the phase.

What this die does, it gives you more people or can possibly give you double or cause you to lose double. But the fun thing is after you roll the die, this one, you don’t have to give it to the next player. You give it to the player your choice. So now we get into deal making and breaking. So if we’re at a table of four of us and I say, you know, the person who’s behind me, I pass it to them. That means the other two players take their turn without it. All right. Wow. Now

You can be salty about it, or you could do something nice for this guy over here who has the die, hoping that you know they will in turn give it to you. Yeah. Now you some people are gonna ask, what if people are greedy and they just keep passing it back and forth? I say, yeah, it’s gonna happen. And there’s cards to take care of that. And when you play one of those cards that allow you to get control of the die, don’t give it back.

Jason Hsieh (09:13)
You, okay.

James Cole (09:28)
You will learn life lessons in this game. And you know, for me I feel it’s very much like what will really happen. Yes, ⁓ things will be unfair at times and you might have to play nice with somebody you don’t like to get what you need and help your people out. Yeah. But it’s not just dice and chips. Again, we also have the cards.

Jason Hsieh (09:45)
I hope.

James Cole (09:49)
The cards give us our basic actions as well as You can add powerful characters to your camp. And there are good characters and the bad characters. And yeah, ⁓ they give you bonuses to certain things, like we have our carrier here. Our carrier is also a very good-looking chap, I’m just gonna say, but ⁓ the

Jason Hsieh (10:00)
What does the goof characters do?

James Cole (10:11)
That’s me, like 20 years ago. our carrier causes you to actually attract less people to your camp because nobody wants to be around this guy. And when the infection comes out, which is a mechanic in the game, it always has to be played on this camp. However, in the end game, he’s still worth a person. So he can be a detriment at first, but in the end, he’s still worth a person.

Jason Hsieh (10:20)
Huh.

James Cole (10:35)
And his opposite is our research doctor. Yeah. And our research doctor, he can save lives on top of that. He also says your camp is given the infection last. So he can help hold it off kind of thing. Okay. When you get a character, you can play it down in front of you, or you can play it on anybody else. In the game, you can play any card on any camp. So a lot of cards can be used as an attack or defense.

Some people will get a character like the carrier, or we even have the hysterical cheerleader or the corporate executive, which are also bad characters. And people are like, Why would I play this? And I was like, Well, you don’t play it on yourself, you play it on your enemy. the the thematic thing is they let this guy in the door. Yeah. And you know, because there’s only a few hundred people left in the world, and then they’re like,

God, this guy is the worst. Now people are gonna ask, what if I get stuck with this guy? Yes, but there are ways to take care of it. So there are cards called, it’s not just a take that game. You know, there’s cards like voted out. So your people get together and eventually they give this person the heave ho, and now they move on to another camp. Or there’s a card called Wait It’s Not a Bite, which is one of my favorite. So this guy or girl hurts themselves.

Jason Hsieh (11:27)
Hahaha

James Cole (11:53)
You know, they get cut on a rusty nail, and everybody in the camp’s like, they’re bit. He’s bit. We got to send him out into the wild. But again, you can use it as attack or defense. So if you have a bad character, you can kill them off in your camp. Or if somebody has a really good character, you can use it as an attack on them. So that’s where yeah, the mechanics of the game are pretty simple, but smart players will basically know when to hold.

Jason Hsieh (12:00)
I see.

James Cole (12:19)
Cards and when to attack and when to you know hold them for defense, stuff like that. And the rest of the cards are basically your actions. So you do something for your people. You could attract people to your camp. You can send zombies somebody’s way. And then there’s also reactions. Again, it’s not just to take that. So you can, you know, mitigate your losses. You got a shotgun. If the zombies are swarming you, you take less.

And one of the fun parts is again, anybody can play any card on any camp. So people can show up and help you with reactions. So again, you’re holding on to the bonus die. And I want you to be my friend and you’re getting attacked. I show up, cut all your losses. Hopefully, when it comes your turn, you remember me and remember what I did for you. And if you don’t, I guarantee I will never help you out again.

Jason Hsieh (13:05)
So that’s a lot of like alliance making work.

James Cole (13:08)
Yeah, there’s a lot of table You got to be ⁓ it’s a very social game. So I have people ask me, can I play it solo? I was just like, it’s social. I’m sorry. It’s the social aspect of this.

Jason Hsieh (13:21)
Yeah, definitely make it fun and also you can turn it on onto each other.

James Cole (13:29)
And it’s not too long where, you know, you can play another game and you’re like, All right, I’m getting my revenge next game You know. Or you’ll remember last time you played and be like, Yep, I got your number.

Jason Hsieh (13:39)
I see, I see. So looking back in your journey of creating this game, what was the hardest part about doing it all yourself?

James Cole (13:47)
Probably the marketing. You know, I’ve always been in graphic design my whole life and I definitely did some marketing. But ⁓ I think that was the hardest just because I was also like I could be finishing off more art or I could be doing marketing, you know. yeah. I could be

Hanging out with my friends while we’re playing the game, or I got to stop for ten minutes, make ⁓ make a social media post showing people playing the game. So it was always like that. ⁓ you always have to do something, you got to keep it rolling, you got to bring in somebody new every day, you know, you got to reach more people. So I would probably say ⁓ the marketing, about shipping.

Getting, you know, things across the globe and finding the right manufacturer is probably second for sure.

Jason Hsieh (14:34)
I see. What was the most rewarding part of running your own business?

James Cole (14:39)
When they showed up when that truck showed up and you know, the truck didn’t show up with a lift gate, even though they were told to. so they had to be unloaded manually and I was sweating and dying, but I loved it. So, you know, it was probably the hardest I ever worked and the happiest I ever was.

And I would say, you know, getting like, wow, these people believe in me. Like, you know, I got hundreds of people that were just like, All right, I’ll give this guy a shot. So, you know, that was huge unexpected and I loved it.

Jason Hsieh (15:12)
Yeah, and I know your Kickstarter campaign went fairly well and what strategy that worked well for your Kickstarter campaign.

James Cole (15:18)
I already had a small following because of my art. you know, I tried to be diligent with making social media posts. I did do some ads which they made me the money they made me, you know. I didn’t lose anything on the ads which helped draw it in, which I know a lot of ads for Kickstarters it usually ends up being you pay what you get. Yeah. You know.

It was tough, but that was my strategy was just hitting the people I know that would love it. I did do a lot of grassroots things. I hit a lot of game cons and at the time I was already working for another game manufacture not manufacturer, but they made support products for Dungeons and Dragons stuff like that. So I was already going to Gen Con. I was already going to Origins

At night I would run demos and talk to people up until the point where my voice gave out. So that helped. Board Game Geek is my local convention. So, you know, I’ve ran some demos there and set up, talked to people. So it helped. I connected with some content creators that helped out a lot as well.

You know, some paid, some not to get videos of my game out there. And that brought in some good traffic and I made some f lifelong friends out of it, so which is great. And you know, now I see at every con and you know, we hang out and talk about other people’s games.

Jason Hsieh (16:34)
Yeah, that’s also how we met at one of the game trade shows as well. yeah, definitely. It’s how you get a lot of connections. And because your background and your expertise is really on the creative side of graphic design, how do you balance all the creative work that you do with the rest of the business like task?

James Cole (16:52)
Man, well I’ll tell you, ⁓ my brain only wants to do one of those things. You can guess which.

Jason Hsieh (16:57)
I see. Yeah.

James Cole (16:59)
yeah. I mean, I’ve always been like a process guy, if you will. So I just had to make it a process and kind of stick to it as far as the business part goes. So I had to set times and wouldn’t let distractions get in the way and it was like, Okay, hey, this has to do this. Especially when I cranking out all the art. It was, you know

Basically four days of art, one day of answering emails, you know, stuff like that. And then hopefully a day off and then usually a day of play testing a game or getting feedback and stuff like that. but I had to make it a process because it does not come natural to me.

Jason Hsieh (17:38)
Yeah, there’s so many different aspects that you also need to be in charge of. Were there any surprises along the way that you learned?

James Cole (17:48)
Well I learned patience. That was one of the other reasons why I was so excited. My shipment got lost for a week. and it didn’t get lost going to port, it didn’t get lost on the boat, it didn’t get lost on its travel across the ocean, it hit the port of LA and disappeared.

Jason Hsieh (18:06)
Yeah? What

What the?

James Cole (18:09)
For

a week. Yeah, it made it halfway across the globe and it disappeared for a week. my shipper finally got hold of me. I mean, we woo talked every day because I was like, dude. And he’s like, hang on, this happens more than you think, and it’ll be okay. And it ended up instead of making it to Texas, it made it to Albuquerque, New Mexico.

A week later, yeah, somebody realized they picked up the long load and then it sat in a warehouse and then somebody figured it out. So yeah. Yeah. I almost had a heart attack. I will tell you this wasn’t great up until that point. But then it had to go back to LA because the shipping company only went to and from new New Mexico.

And then it had to come to me in Texas. So I did learn I learned patience. and I learned that there’s so many moving parts. I will also say I was again working for another kind of like toy game manufacturer and my experience there also helped me out and helped me not be like super reactionary. Also gave me experience working with, you know, manufacturers.

around the globe, so Yeah. yeah. That but that was probably my biggest lesson.

Jason Hsieh (19:22)
I see. Thank you for sharing that. So looking into the future, what are your plans for the next few years? Are you working on more expansion or launching a different game?

James Cole (19:31)
I do have another expansion. It’s mostly done except for custom art. However, I need the dust to settle so I know where everything’s at before I can launch that guy. However, just the other day I came up with a different idea, which was you know what I’m gonna do? I am gonna make a mini game within my game. So the game itself has these three different dice and obviously has a lot of chips.

Jason Hsieh (19:50)
Okay.

James Cole (19:56)
So I am currently in the process of making a mini game that uses what people already have as like a hey, you know, I promised another expansion and it’s almost there. But in the meantime, here’s a mini game. I’m gonna do like a mini Kickstarter campaign. You wanna help me out, throw a buck at it? It’s great. You want a printed version of the rules? You know, five bucks and whatever the

two dollars to ship it and I’ll send them to you and here you go. Yeah. I’m gonna work on a game within the game so people can get more use out of the game they already have. And you know, obviously I still got a lot more of these guys left around, you know, I’m gonna use that also to be like, hey, and if you want the original, you want to get it at a good price with all the expansions.

And signed by the artist, I will send them all out to you as you know. Yeah. It can just be a add on to the already what’s there.

Jason Hsieh (20:49)
I see. Okay. Thank you for sharing that as well. So as we’re wrapping up today’s interview, if you have to just share one piece of advice with someone that’s getting started within the toys and game industry, what would that be?

James Cole (21:00)
Man, one piece of advice I got I could talk this I could do talk for hours too. I would say there are support groups and I’m not saying this like you have an addiction or anything. I’m gonna say there other game designers for the most part are very supportive of people trying to get in. And ⁓ you know, if you wanna there’s a a few avenues

There’s social media groups and a lot of the people on there are pretty good people and will give their time. You know, I’ve done calls and stuff with people like that who have helped me out. So my advice would be reach out to the other game designers and get their feedback, which is I’m saying ⁓ my advice is get more advice. but ⁓ it’s true, and I will tell you that some people

They help me, you know, just get over some obvious humps. People that will read your rules with clear eyes is always good, you know, and feedback to people that know the back end of games. It’s invaluable. So yeah, seek out those groups and you know, ask questions and usually everybody there is pretty good.

Jason Hsieh (22:06)
Okay, thank you for sharing that. So for those of our listeners and audience that would like learn a bit more about you and your company, where is the best place for people to find online?

James Cole (22:15)
My website, so Zombie Survival Game is the best place to go. It’s also on Game Found, it’s also on Etsy. You know you can go see the old Kickstarters and the new one’s gonna pop up and I’m gonna put the shell up also for the expansion when that’s ready to go. But the mini game is coming

my website also has all those links to all the different avenues, however you want to buy. You can buy it direct from me, you can buy it again through Etsy or GameFound. So And I go to conventions. So ⁓ I’ll be at Board Game Geek if you know, one of the lucky few. I’m going back to Gen Con Origins. ⁓ I don’t know if I could do both again this year. That was a stretch on me and my wife and our vehicles. So

Jason Hsieh (22:43)
I see, okay.

You

I see. Yeah, that’s a lot for sure. So thank you again for your time. So, and thank you for our audience for tuning into this episode of Toy Business Unboxed Podcast. We hope you have enjoyed today’s conversation and find it insightful and inspiring. If you like what you have heard, be sure to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite platform so you never miss an episode. We appreciate your support and would love it if you can leave us a review and share the podcast with your friend and colleagues.

James Cole (23:03)
Hey, thank you for having me.

Jason Hsieh (23:25)
For more resource tips and the latest update within the toys end game industry, visit our website at toy-launch.com. Join our conversation and connect with us on social media using #ToyBusinessUnboxed. We’d love to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes. Until next time, keep innovating, keep creating, keep bringing joy through toys. This is Jason Hsieh signing off on the Toy Business Unboxed Podcast. We’ll see you in the next episode. Thank you very much, everyone.