How a Basketball Card Game Bridges Math and Community

Jason Hsieh (00:42)
Welcome back to another episode of Toy Business Unboxed. Today we’re joined by Chi, an entrepreneur, educator, and the founder of GameFlo to talk about the highs, the lows, the lesson of building a game business from the ground up. From early prototype to retail plan to future digital version, Chi will share what it takes to really create meaningful games and connect with communities and keep going when things doesn’t go as planned. So thank you so much for being on our show today.

Chijioge Nwogu (01:08)
Great to be here, Jason. Thanks for having me. I appreciate you.

Jason Hsieh (01:11)
Yeah, so let’s start at the beginning. Horace sparked the idea of starting your own companies and creating this game that you currently have.

Chijioge Nwogu (01:20)
Sure. For me, I am really big on innovation and trying to create new things. So for me, I’ve in the past built around sports technology. And I’ve always seen that, well, many times when I’ve talked to young people and talked about sports, there’s an instant connection, right? And as someone who’s worked in

different fields in finance and sports technology. I also recognize that there are many skills and jobs which people need today. And I think many of those skills and jobs seem very far away for people. It seems so hard and difficult. I’m like, no, it’s not that hard. It’s all about problem solving, decision making, knowing how to break down a problem. And so for me, it was more about how can I create a company where I can teach people

really important skills and also make that for them enjoyable and fun.

Jason Hsieh (02:12)
I see, I see, I see. So when you first building the game, where did the idea came from? I know it’s like a basketball-themed game. And also, what are you explaining? If you can show the game a little bit and kind of explain the concept of the game.

Chijioge Nwogu (02:26)
For sure. So our first game is called Pick Up Basketball. And I grew up in New York City, right? In New York, you’ll go outside and you’ll play with people and play basketball and you meet different people each time you play. And so for me, the idea of having play be a space to connect with people from different walks of life and learn about them was really important. And so for us, we took time and thought about how we can make really diverse and unique characters.

But then too, for me, my knowledge for math and data and numbers came from being a big sports fan. My interest in baseball and basketball helped me practice skills around addition, around how to predict outcomes. And so for me, once again, the idea of a sports game was something which I knew well. And so I said, you know what? For my first game, let me build something which I would play myself and enjoy.

A big basketball fans I figured let’s start with basketball and see how this concept of building a game which can connect people and teach them skills and still be culturally evolving. How can we make this happen? And so basketball is really our first try at it.

Jason Hsieh (03:32)
I see, I see, I see. And how much of the play testing were you doing as far as figuring out the right balance? And I know you list a lot of different characters in your game as well. Trying to figure out what does each character do and how does they kind of balance out with each other.

Chijioge Nwogu (03:47)
Yeah, exactly. I mean, first we began playtesting in 2018. And a lot of our playtesting was saying, from a conceptual standpoint, what kind of game do you want to create and what games out there are similar, right? And so for us, we did not want to have a game where people had to buy expansion packs over and over again and have to have parents or a consumer spend more money, right? So it’s buy one pack and you’re good for life.

And so once we had that idea in mind, we said, OK, how can we now build a basketball game that still has a basketball core, but isn’t exactly like real basketball, which is very tough. Because people think basketball, they score 1.2 points, 3 points dribble, shoot, all that kind of stuff. But we recognize that this had to be a good card game. And so that’s where we kind of spent time in 2018.

began trying out small concepts with different young people. So we went to boys and girls clubs, we went to after school programs, we went to math classes. And really got to speak with young people about the idea of making math more fun, making these things more fun, and then ask them as well what things they struggle with in math class. Right? I think the biggest take away was that it was more about confidence. People just had a tough time with confidence. So

I think the more we got to have people play the game and see that they were growing more confident playing the game, the more we were going in right direction.

Jason Hsieh (05:13)
I see, I see, I see. And while you’re explaining that, I think it will be beneficial for the listeners for you to explain the rule of the game, because that’s quite a little bit of the math involved. Yeah.

Chijioge Nwogu (05:24)
For sure. The game is a game of strategy and chance. And so really your goal is to take the different players in the game and build your team. And so you start with three cards each and then throughout the game, you take your turn by either trying to score points against one of your opponents or by adding a card to your team from the deck.

That’s the general gameplay and scoring is based on the players have different attributes like an offense number and a defense number. And so you score points based on having a higher offense and your opponent’s defense, right? So let’s say I have an offensive nine against your defensive six, I will get three points for making my shot. So that’s where the math is involved. There’s also math involved in terms of probability because it’s really

all based around dice rolling. And so your chance to make or miss is based on a set probability that your card has. And so let’s say my card has a higher chance to make the shot, right? That’s still all chance. I could still miss the shot because of a dice. And so for us, it’s cool in that you can have a strategy around how you build your team, but it still comes down to the dice and that element of luck to make sure the game isn’t too overpowered.

Jason Hsieh (06:39)
Yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure. And I also have like a screenshot of the game here for those of you who actually watching or will be interested to learn about more how the game looks like. ⁓ We are also showing a quick kind of a screenshot of how the card looks like. Just like what you’re explaining, each of the cards have different abilities and you also have different… If you can explain all the different numbers that is on the card.

Chijioge Nwogu (07:04)
Sure. once again, the game is something where it’s about decision making and how you process information. So each card information that’s very helpful. The card has a name, a player name, and then the cards have a value, that big bold number at the bottom left. And value just tells you how good the card is compared to the rest of the deck. And so the value goes from 1 to 12.

12 being the best in the game and a 1 being not so great. So if you get confused at any point, just look at the value and tell you how good your card is. And then at the upper right is the offense and defense score. Like I said, it comes down to scoring points, it’s about the difference between your offense and your opponent’s defense. And then the numbers in circles are your shot zones.

And that’s what you have to roll with two dice to make the shot. And so if, for example, Tina Bell rolled a four, so she rolled a two and a two, a three and a one, she makes a shot. And so there’s addition involved in adding up the dice roll and seeing that what you rolled matches your shot zones. And so the math is involved in the game, but still, once again, it’s about looking at your players.

powers and abilities right which are down below that text there and knowing how to use the different powers to accomplish the goal of one scoring point stopping your opponent and eventually winning the game. So the more you play the more you understand how to use your card correctly but it’s fundamentally a game out how many points you scored or if you made or missed a shot.

Jason Hsieh (08:38)
Yeah, that’s a really good explanation as well. And let me switch back here. So I guess what were some of the initial challenges that you can build up this company from the grounds up that you were not expecting?

Chijioge Nwogu (08:52)
Yeah, I mean, I would say for us, like I said, we began in 2018 and as we were building, we got hit by COVID. And so I was definitely a case of us understanding that things don’t always go as planned. But I think for us during that year of COVID, we got to spend way more time working on character design and really invested into making all these characters really come to life. So that was something that was…

was a blessing in disguise. But think also challenge has been knowing how to reach our audience. There’s so many games out there. So many good games, so many bad games out there. I think the consumer sometimes is overwhelmed by what’s being tossed at them. I think for us, because we are a sports-themed game, we stand out.

the crowd. There are not that many sports themed games out there. So think for us, we’ve definitely leaned into that saying, okay, if your child, if your uncle, if your niece, if your spouse is a basketball fan and likes playing cards, they will love playing pickup basketball card games. I think that’s helped us stand out a bit more. But early on, right, everyone is trying to talk to these buyers and get into these retail spots that it’s very overwhelming to have that much competition. But you learn how to stand out.

Jason Hsieh (10:05)
I see, I see, I see. And based on your experience, what kind of marketing has been working well for the brand for it to gain more awareness and also try to reach out to more potential customers?

Chijioge Nwogu (10:18)
Yeah, I believe it’s really about going out there people the game and also playing with them. So I mentioned earlier on in play testing, we spent lots of time with boys and girls clubs, YMCA, after-school programs. I think for me, when I go into those spaces and play the game, right, the kids see or play the game and enjoy the game and so

It depends that they play this awesome game in after school program called pick up. They should buy it right. And then the teacher says, Hey, parents, this game was in our program this past week. Your kids love this. think for us, we have found ways to create champions and advocates for a pickup because we have gone into community groups. Right. And we’ve said, we want to help out. want to help you guys engage young people and help them play and be free, but still help them learn important skills, right? Skills, which

It could be AI, be, it could be who knows what, but no matter or what discipline, you always have to think in a critical way and make decisions. Right. So I think, us going out there and talking to people and having them play the game and at that point being out mouthpiece has been really, really helpful. We used a program last year around the holiday break called Tryazon where essentially we got to have about 70 different

micro influences, host game nights with our game and have their friends and family come play pickup. Yeah, it really is a because for us we are based in New York and also New Carolina. How do we reach someone who might be in Indiana or Wyoming, right? And so programs like that where we can reach a wider set of people and have them play a game have really been helpful.

Jason Hsieh (11:41)
wow, okay nice.

I see, see. Are those paid influencers or what was the negotiation with those influencers?

Chijioge Nwogu (12:02)
Yeah,

so essentially you pay the company and then the company goes out there and finds influences and from that point gets in the game. so the influences oftentimes just get a bunch of free games which they enjoy and get to host game nights. this is valued that but really you work through the group called Tryazon to organize the different play events.

Jason Hsieh (12:21)
Do they specialize in tabletop games? Oh, they specialize.

Chijioge Nwogu (12:23)
This sure do, this sure do, yep.

heard about Tryazon from really, a big game company that talked about how from their marketing efforts and marketing spend, the most return investment has been done using Tryazon. I think for us, we like to learn from what people are doing and copy their marketing spend. That’s something which people have talked about being a very impactful way to spend money.

It can lead to reviews online, right? Lead to people making videos on social media. Hopefully lead to more sales.

Jason Hsieh (12:54)
okay. Okay. Very interesting concept. I think I might have talked to their CEO in the past. Yeah, I might talk to them before. So it’s T-R-Y-A-Z-O-N. I definitely talked to them before. Yeah, sounds familiar. So thank you so much for mentioning that. And also, throughout your journey, what are some of the feedback, especially from the kids that have kind of shaped the product over time?

Chijioge Nwogu (12:59)
Yeah?

Yeah, I mean, It’s great. I think for me, we were very intentional not to call a math game. Because even from our play testing, we found language is very important. And when young people hear the word math game or math or this and that, they say, oh my God, this is school. I don’t want to be in school. I just left school. They get very defensive when bring up the word math. But I think the people who have played the game have said,

This game is fun. I see that there’s math involved. I don’t mind it because the math just helps you accomplish your goals. it’s within the game in way. So I think here, you got people saying that, yes, I know I’m doing math, but I actually enjoy this. It has been really the best testimony you can possibly get. And I think also people love the fact that, like I said, we have diverse characters, right? And many times,

people don’t see themselves in games. And so I think having characters where folks can say, okay, this kind of looks like me. It looks like my dad, looks like my uncle, right? I think that’s something which has gone a long way towards trying to build a community of people who our mission. Also appreciate the fact that we’re very intentional about things which we put out there as a game.

Jason Hsieh (14:31)
Yeah, for sure, for sure. And I think one of the other important decisions that we have in the industry, especially for designers or entrepreneurs, is going the route of either self-publishing or trying to license your game or product to a bigger company. How do you went go through that process and what makes you decide to go with the self-publishing route instead of licensing your product to a bigger publisher?

Chijioge Nwogu (14:55)
For sure. I believe in myself. It comes down to I think when it comes down to trying to get the game out there and doing what it takes to get out there, I think can do it. think our team can do So my approach is that let’s try it first. If it doesn’t work out, now, let’s go a different option, right. And have someone else take the game and license it. But I think for now we just felt as a new game company, let’s go through this process one time, right. From start to finish.

idea, playtesting, right, design, trying to find a manufacturer, doing the box design, all the things that go into making the game. Let’s understand that. So in the future, when we make future games, we can understand the pros and cons of going the licensed route. So I think for us, was more about just you learn by doing. And so we felt like we could learn a lot by having this first game, be in house.

Jason Hsieh (15:42)
I see, see, I see. Yeah, I think that’s just like running your own business and seeing sometimes people is kind of a little bit afraid of how many different things that could be involved. But it’s always good to kind of learn it yourself. Even if you want to license it in the future, at least you know what does it actually take for the game to be on the shelf of some store.

Chijioge Nwogu (16:05)
Oh yeah, I seen people who will spend crazy amounts of money and pay someone to do work for them and have no idea what that work entails. So if I’m gonna charge you 50,000 bucks to do a project, I don’t know what that money is going towards. You could be scamming me, right? But that 50,000 bucks, if I know this is actually 5,000 bucks worth of work.

Jason Hsieh (16:19)
Yeah.

Chijioge Nwogu (16:24)
You charge me 50,000 that makes no sense. So therefore, no thank you. So I think once again, from a business standpoint, it’s definitely a value knowing how things are built up from point. Figure out how you want to outsource that going forward.

Jason Hsieh (16:36)
For sure, that’s definitely a very important aspect as well. What are you planning in the horizon? What is the plan for the next few years for the company?

Chijioge Nwogu (16:44)
Yes, I plan to continue to make sports theme games. And so we’ve done pick up basketball and we’re going to release pick up soccer or pick up football based on where you’re from. That will come out next year to align with World Cup being in North America next year. the World Cup is coming to the US, Mexico and Canada next summer. So in terms of attention and press, everyone looking up.

FIFA soccer World Cup, this and that. think for us, we want to ride that momentum and have our second title come out. And then we’re also working on making pickup basketball into a digital game. So folks can connect and play across borders and state lines and countries, right? And still enjoy the game. And also I think from a learning standpoint, we think people can learn the game easier online, if not, also play tabletop.

Trying to create a way to educate folks on how to play our game is something which we’re always thinking about. And so I think having a digital game as a tool towards that is very, very vital, especially as we work with different people who care about how can we create more engaging screen time and more productive screen time, right? We’ll talk about how tabletop is a way to unplug and go off the screen. But this is 2025, right? We can’t avoid people being on screens.

So how do we make sure that there are productive screen time options for people to use and play, especially young kids to use and play?

Jason Hsieh (18:11)
I see. For that, are you going to use your own platform or use an existing platform out there like board game? I know there’s board game arena that’s pretty big. There’s tabletop simulator as well. Like, you going one of those or what is the direction?

Chijioge Nwogu (18:25)
We are making our own platform. this has been years in the planning. And so in the past, we actually tabletop simulator. but we are making our own game, own platform. It’ll be both in iOS and also in Android.

Jason Hsieh (18:38)
Oh wow. That sounds like a lot of investment instead of using existing platform.

Chijioge Nwogu (18:42)
Yeah, because for us, this is just the base, the foundation for what we’re trying to build. So I think for us, knowing that we want to build a lot on top of this base, we felt like having control of a platform made more sense as we add in things over time and add in features, which we think will make our game and platform stand out.

Jason Hsieh (19:01)
OK, what does the timeline for the digital version look like?

Chijioge Nwogu (19:05)
Yeah, so we’ll have our first draft, first MVP out in end of July. And we hope to have a version out on the App Store by the end of hopefully August, September. It’s been a great process. we’re very lucky to have some good people involved. But we want to make sure we test, test, test, test, get feedback, and keep on working on things.

Jason Hsieh (19:26)
I see. I see. see. Thank you for sharing that. I think not a lot of people is willing to even attempt that. That sounds a lot of work and not just time involved, but a lot of resources involved to turn the tabletop games into a digital version and also with your own platform, which is definitely not an easy project to do. yeah, definitely kudos to you for doing that and looking forward to see the digital version here.

Chijioge Nwogu (19:53)
Thank you, appreciate that. Thank you.

Jason Hsieh (19:55)
And if looking back, as far as like launching all the different games, and I know you have a few other games in mind, how do you usually balance creativities with like the reality of running a business?

Chijioge Nwogu (20:08)
Yeah, that’s an excellent question, I think. For me, as someone who has in the past, different companies, I am really big on, let’s use what we have in front of us and make the most of it. So I think we have all kinds of ideas and things which we want to build. But if we don’t have the things to build them right now, we can’t do that. So I mentioned the digital game.

We were trying to build that years ago, but we don’t have the resources to build that quite yet. So I think it’s more about being patient and being real about what we can do. Because if you take a big swing, let’s take a big risk, and it doesn’t work out, that could really destroy your business. And so for us, we definitely try to have our ideas, which we have in mind, but also recognize that from a company’s

standpoint we can’t do it all. Right? we can’t do every single thing which we want to do let’s do a few things really, really well as time goes on we can’t expand or do more so I think this is being real about things and also recognizing that we can get things done in the future and that it’s not all about having things be done right

Jason Hsieh (21:10)
I see, see. Thank you so much for sharing that. And as we’re kind of wrapping up today’s interview, looking back, if you have to just share one piece of the advice with someone that’s getting started within the toys and game industry, what would that be?

Chijioge Nwogu (21:23)
think me, I look back to our earliest prototypes we first began and it was as simple as into Google, grabbing screenshots of basketball having printouts, taking a sharpie and then writing down numbers on the card. Right. And then getting a card sleeve and turning that paper into a card sleeve. Right. From that point, we would

get feedback and you erase things out, write new numbers, right? And just like, once again, just like, it’s okay to start very, raw and simple, right? Just sort things out and build and recognize that your first draft is always going to be your worst draft, right? You get better after each draft you do. And so I just iterate and iterate, but you have to start some places. So it’s fine to start ugly and start things and then very, very raw

and the way in which you would not want to have people see it, but go out there and build it. And then if it doesn’t work out, you didn’t spend too much money or waste too much time. I think sometimes people try to make a logo on their website and do all these different things before they actually figure out like what is our product, what are we building and what’s the value here. And I think I’m also a professor of business at UNC. I always talk about how you need to figure out

people’s pain point and problem and how you can solve that problem. And so for us, we recognize that lots of parents are worried about kids on their screens, lots of kids struggle with confidence in math. So how do we solve that pain point with a very good product? And so we build based on that pain point. And so you can start with asking people questions, getting feedback, and then go from there. But at least start and start very simple and take time and build.

Jason Hsieh (23:03)
I see. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. And for those of our listeners, I would love to learn a little bit more about you and your company. Where is the best place for people to find you online?

Chijioge Nwogu (23:12)
For sure. Our website is http://www.gameflo.io. g-a-m-e-f-l-o.io That’s our website. can watch our videos, learn more about our company, our mission, and definitely check out our social media sites as well. We are really big on Instagram and TikToks. Definitely come on those platforms too.

Jason Hsieh (23:36)
I see. Okay. Thank you. We’ll definitely include that in the show note. And thank you so much again for your time today to share your story, your journey and your background behind your businesses and the wonderful product that you’re building within the industry.

Chijioge Nwogu (23:49)
Thank you, It’s been a pleasure and this is really great to talk to you and connect and hopefully we’ll do it again sometime soon.

Jason Hsieh (23:56)
Of course, and for our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in to today’s episode of Toy Business Unboxed podcast. We hope you have enjoyed the conversation and find it insightful and inspiring. If you like what you have heard, be sure to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite platform so you never miss an episode. We really appreciate your support and would love it if you can leave us a review and share the podcast with your friend and colleague. For more resource tips and the latest update within the toys and game industry,

visit our website at toy-launch.com. Join the conversation and connect with us on social media using #toybusinessunboxed. We’d love to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes. Until next time, keep innovating, keep creating, keep bringing joy to toys. This is Jason Hsieh signing off on the Toy Business Unboxed podcast. We’ll see you in the next episode. Thank you so much, everyone.