How to Balance Tech and Traditional Learning: Insights from Barnes Cooper

EP043_08-23-24_Leonid Shafir

Intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to Toy Business Unboxed, your gateway to the secrets of the toy industry. Here, Jason Hsieh, a toy entrepreneur and expert in the field. “Every product we develop is really inspired by some of the real life experience that we have with our son.” “60 percent of all toys last year were sold on Amazon.”

“Be passionate about it. Because it’s a road. It’s a journey.” “Like when you have an idea that you think is gonna somewhat change the world, make things better, I’d say go for it.“

Jason Hsieh: Hello, welcome back to another episode of Toy Business Unboxed, where we uncover the secret behind the toy that captivate our imagination. I’m your host, Jason Hsieh, and today we are joined by our special guest, who is also reshaping the world of puzzle games. Thank you for joining us today.

Leonid Shafir: Thank you for inviting me. It’s [00:01:00] been a while, we’ve been planning this for quite some time, finally it’s happening. 

Jason Hsieh: Can you start out by sharing the story behind the funding of Play-A-Maze and the toy company? 

Leonid Shafir: It’s very easy and at the same time, very hard question, because there is no specific story. Play-A-Maze is a product of many things and many interests that I had in the past and that I still have. As a kid, I enjoyed playing with construction sets, particularly with gears. My father, who was an engineer, would bring me gears and I would build all sorts of structures with them, static and dynamic. This passion for gears is still with me, even though I’m not an engineer, but I do like mechanics and mechanical constructions. That’s one of the contributing factors. Another contributing factor is my fascination with play. I studied the psychology of play, the history of play at the university, and it was a natural transition, not just to study it, but to contribute to play by developing my skills. Something that’s [00:02:00] based on A, my interest in gears, and B, my interest in mazes, because mazes, or labyrinths, they’re used interchangeably, are amazing structures, they have been with us since the emergence of humanity. since the dawn of time they appear in mythology, there are parts of various historical sites such as Stonehenge in the UK, and they represent something particularly deep and profound about human experience. This is why many psychologists are so fascinated by them as well. I’m Fascinated by mazes as much as many of these people who study them professionally, because I see there is something, very profound in them that speaks to the way we think, the way we see the world, perhaps.

And this is why solving mazes, First on paper and later on computer or, mechanical mazes became a passion of mine. So all these factors contributed to aha moment when one day [00:03:00] me and my father decided that we should use our experience. My father is a professional mechanical engineer. I studied psychology or history of play to design some things that will address several problems on the market. That’s just lack of affordable, safe, portable STEM toys. STEM is a acronym for science, technology, engineering, and math. And many people think that STEM is primarily about electronics. No, mechanics is an important component of both engineering, math, science, or any other part of that STEM acronym. And unfortunately there are very few affordable mechanical toys in the market. Of course, you can buy a Lego set that’s very good at developing mechanical expertise in children, but they’re so expensive, my goodness. Each time I go to Toys R Us, and I look at the price tags, I’m getting full. 

Jason Hsieh: Yeah, 

Leonid Shafir: Of course, we decided to do some things that will combine the [00:04:00] benefits of affordability, portability, safety, and learning. Mechanical learning. And we came up with a family of products. I’m showing you several of them, which are puzzles, but puzzles that require you to operate gears to solve them, get the ball from start to finish point. We have, as I said, a family of them. What I showed you are just two items in this puzzle line. We each have a new puzzle to market, and we are definitely a company. A startup still at this stage that is focused on puzzles because puzzle mazes, manipulated puzzle mazes, it’s more than just a product for us. It’s a passion.

Jason Hsieh: What is the rule and how does it work exactly? 

Leonid Shafir: I can show you one. It’s yeah. So the idea here, generally speaking, is to get the maze from a starting point, let’s say here, to the final destination, which is one of these deep pockets. And as you get the ball in, you need to rotate the [00:05:00] gears, as you see, to pass the ball through. You see the ball is moving between them. And as you do this, you need to avoid the traps. Otherwise you’ll have to restart the game. So the concept is simple. We are not really saying that we made a groundbreaking discovery, but it’s also something which we consider an advantage because our toys are reminiscent of all the nice puzzle toys, puzzle mazes that parents and grandparents played with. But at the same time. Are introducing new elements and our know how is a combination of these moving parts, which are more than just gear, they include those pendulums, rockers sliders and whatnot to facilitate. Learning, learning of mechanical engineering, of math, because gears are about ratios, and you learn such important mathematical concepts intuitively, and you learn what’s more important through fun and play. But not the least, precisely because this product [00:06:00] is no screen. So you don’t need a gadget for it. It doesn’t require batteries. And at the same time, you present old, century tried, century old tried and true game concepts in a new way. It’s good for a family play and a generational play. So this is yet another offer to our customers that we believe is lacking out there because a lot of toys that exist on the market, they’re either too high tech so grandparents can’t really play with them with their grandchildren while using these toys. Or they are too traditional for a lot of younger children who are literally born with gadgets, are not so much fascinated by them. We wanted to be somewhere in the middle to get the best of both worlds and as we’re developing our product, we were reminded several times by our focus groups with which we tested, try to do something without screens and without batteries. So our toys are purely pure mechanics. [00:07:00] Nothing of this kind, nothing of,

Jason Hsieh: I see. And I know you have two different versions as well for different age groups, right? 

Leonid Shafir: We have different versions yes. 

Jason Hsieh: Can you explain a little bit about that? 

Leonid Shafir: Some are simpler products, some are more complex. For example, right now we are bringing to market the smallest version of our puzzle, in our puzzle maze family, which is a combination of of a puzzle maze. As you see, principle is the same here. You need to get the ball through moving and static parts of the maze to, from start to finish. And you play on both sides at the same time. You can use it obviously because of its size and this chain ring, you can use it as a key chain. And if nowadays people are feeling the need for fidgets, because it’s, way to develop micromotorics, exerciser fingers, and also just to relax and unwind. So you’re here, you have all sorts of moving parts, which are part of, as a maze solution may structures, [00:08:00] but that can be also used independently for fidgeting. And as I said, it’s small, you can put it in your pocket and carry around. So you don’t need to worry about having something big and unwieldy, which you cannot even move around.

Jason Hsieh: Earlier you mentioned you want to focusing on developing toy that doesn’t have electronic what doesn’t have battery in it. 

Leonid Shafir: Honestly, I like electronics. So we have several designs sitting on our shelves in the basement, which use electronics to enhance. Gameplay because for example, they can present unique challenges to the player or detect the ball location or simply keep track of how many balls you deliver it to finish point within let’s say 10 minutes or any given period of time, but there are two problems.

First of all, as I said, many parents and particularly grandparents are not happy with electronics. They want something more traditional because they think that their children spend too much time with other chronic those gadgets already second, everybody [00:09:00] wants to have a sophisticated toys It does all sorts of things but not many people are willing to pay for such a toys because our toys are for Affordability is a key one of the key.

Yeah, if we start adding electronics to our product price point will be much higher affordability. Of course we’ll be lower. It’s not a priority for us, even though we have been, we have done some exploratory work in this domain and we do have prototypes that use electronics to add additional features to.

Jason Hsieh: And one more thing I want to if you don’t mind sharing with our audience, because a lot of our audience are also toy entrepreneur I know you also did a Kickstarter with your product. Can you share a little bit of your experience running? 

Leonid Shafir: My experience was simple and straightforward before I launched the Kickstarter campaign, I became sure that I will be able to raise. What I need to raise by mobilizing my friends, family like minded people, because [00:10:00] if you fail in a crowdfunding campaign it pretty much thanks your project. In my case, crowdfunding campaign was both a means to finance production, which we more or less already had the funds. We just needed a little bit and a proof of product market fit.

It worked. It worked well because we secured a community of early adopters who purchased our products, who invested in it. And it did provide some traction. However, there were also negative outcomes with it. For example, there were several toy store owners who said, Oh, you were at the crowdfunding campaign. So most of the people who wanted this toy must have purchased it already. So there may be a diminishing demand as a result of it. I didn’t expect this but it’s important to 

Jason Hsieh: buy the toy store than kickstart it. 

Leonid Shafir: Yeah apparently that was the mindset of these toy store owners, but they were a minority, I must say.

Jason Hsieh: Oh, minority, okay. 

Leonid Shafir: All in all, the [00:11:00] crowdfunding campaign was a very good experience just in terms of launching the product in a narrow sense for work. So just for for getting the funds for tooling and production, but also other aspects of product launch, such as community and mobilization and engagement such as marketing for the organization production and many other aspects. Many other important stages that are part of doing business unless you just want to license your product away. 

Jason Hsieh: Yeah I see. You have been working on this project for a few years now. What was the biggest, Challenge so far that you have experienced that you have overcome over the years since you started a toy brand? 

Leonid Shafir: They still pop up from time to time, the major challenge that we encountered and we’re still working on is setting up e commerce because my business model was and still is Primarily sales through independent stores [00:12:00] and through small chains.

Currently, we’re working on expanding our distribution, our channels by developing our commerce and our presence on e commerce platforms such as Amazon. And this is going slower and more. I have a store on Amazon, but it’s not working properly. So that’s the challenge that we’re currently resolving, but I do sell from my website. So everything can be what’s available. What’s in stock and be ordered through my website. And I’m looking into other platforms such as eBay as well. Also exploring wholesale platforms such as FAIR, but I’m, not there yet. Not sure if that’s what where I need to be because most of my sales reps and that’s who’s, who might work most of the time, they use market time, they don’t.

Jason Hsieh: Yeah, they do use market time. Yeah. 

Leonid Shafir: And market time is fine for my needs at this stage, but growth is important. And to grow e commerce is a [00:13:00] big next steps that we are in the process of making and 

Jason Hsieh: yeah, Amazon is a tricky platform. We have been selling for our own in house brand. We have been selling for eight years on Amazon and it has getting harder every single year, it just gets harder and harder and more competition coming in, Amazon raising fee, advertising become more expensive.

Leonid Shafir: We successfully tackled several imitations of our products on Amazon Canada. Because here I have an IP that’s pending in the U. S. I also have an IP, a pattern, a design pattern pending, but Amazon U. S. is different there. I cannot remove someone’s request to remove someone’s listing on Amazon until after I have received the pattern. So it’s pending. 

Jason Hsieh: Yeah, that’s correct. In the US, you have to have the patent. 

Leonid Shafir: In Canada, we were able to successfully remove six or seven listings, and one of the [00:14:00] online stores agreed to sign an agreement with us and pay us. So like royalty fees. So I think that was an important experience as well and challenges we were able to resolve because these sales do not stifle our presence in e commerce because the sales of this store that’s paying our royalties they’re not too big, but at the same time, it’s an additional revenue stream. And also a way to promote our product because they only sell one model. People see the direct imitation of what we’re doing and what we’re doing. Let me put it this way. It’s greater quality and a greater variety because we have more models. So in this respect it’s each coin has two sides, the advantage, the disadvantages, of course, that they’re imitating you, but the flip side that you are getting more promotion and some money from such people.

I do most of it by myself with the exception of some work done by freelancers. 

Jason Hsieh: As far as your creative process, because you have a very interesting background with engineering and all that, so [00:15:00] I guess you just come up with the idea yourself and then do the 3D drawing? 

Leonid Shafir: It’s a big mystery how human imagination and creativity work. I don’t think anyone knows it. I think it’s one of the big challenges for science, similar to consciousness, life, and so on. All I can say is that to me, it is reminiscent somehow of I don’t know what of pregnancy probably, because at some point you realize that something is buzzing in your head, but you cannot figure out what. And eventually through efforts, through reflection, you do different things, going for a walk, cooking, fixing, doing house chores. You process this at the back of your mind, and eventually it emerges. It emerges as a vague concept, not a concept that already directly represents this, but a concept that’s more like a dream of gears connected together doing something. And then you think how it can be massaged into the specific domain, because I’m interested in play.

So for me, it’s naturally to channel this discovery, this emergent idea into toys. For others, it may [00:16:00] be, I don’t know what car mechanics consumer products, particular software solutions or something else. But eventually you develop a mindset. That is both at the same time, open and focused. You open in the sense that you absorb ideas from different fields. You try to learn what you don’t know. You try to look at things that you know, from a different angle, step one, step two, focus is when you, whatever you learn from different fields, you try to apply to the domains that interest you. In my case, it’s the domain of play in particular puzzle toys. So each idea I try to see whenever I encounter an interesting idea, which may be kinetic art, which may be a demonstration of a particular equipment or machinery, or any object of process in nature that I just learned about.

I’m trying to think how it can be gainfully employed towards an interesting gear or toy. In general terms, this is how my process works, but it’s much more complex than this, of course, and it never follows, specific [00:17:00] steps like an algorithm. 

We try to do the same. We maintain close ties with parents, with early childhood educators, and professionals such as children’s psychologists. But oftentimes particularly with parents, these people don’t have a clear idea of what they want. They just want something cheap, fun to play with, safe, affordable. You show them something, they say first time they say yes, next time they say no, it’s very situational. And unless you bring them a finalized product, they may have difficulty understanding how it works. So we do use parental and professional advice, but in many cases, if you want. And advice on a concept early stage concept. We develop a minimum viable product and we usually show it. To parents, of course, and to children, but I, in my experience, it’s more productive and it’s more informative to show it to professionals, such as toy owners, such as toy store owners or [00:18:00] sales representatives with lots of experience or people of play who have enough experience and an ability not to steal your idea, which is very important because it’s more productive.

Jason Hsieh: Yeah, And you can also hire professional company. One of my podcast guests before is Amanda, who’s a good play guide. Her company specializes in conducting play, testing, and give out certification. 

Leonid Shafir: We already have established relations with various play facilities in town, such as play centers or with, several daycares, and even with schools who allow us to bring our products and demonstrate them to kids and there’s of course, it’s all very strict rules which we must follow, but it’s all fine for us. And it’s been, it’s very interesting because I do open ended the structure testing. I just come put my toys on the table, step aside. Kids have other toys, and the other kids, they come, start playing, [00:19:00] and stay with this toy. That they’re interested. And I usually try to gauge multiple parameters. So I measure how much time they spend for a toy. I pay attention to how they interact with it. I pay attention to how often they come back, because they might put it aside, come back in 10 minutes, for example. Pay attention how often kids play together, how often they play, or if they play individually, if they play together, what form of play is this? Is it cooperation or competition or anywhere in between? So it’s very, the observation the study of how children interact with my products is an interesting process in and of itself. In addition to being informative for the program development.

Jason Hsieh: Yeah, for sure. Especially on the spectrum, because my son is also on the spectrum. Have you get, do any case study for kids with special needs?

Leonid Shafir: Not specific case studies for children with special needs. But we did talk to early learning specialists and child psychologists who work with special needs [00:20:00] children. And they indicated how Puzzle maze toys, mechanical puzzle maze toys can benefit them. It’s actually very simple, kids can concentrate on it. Whereas in video games usually there are a lot of distractions. It’s harder for them to concentrate, and here you have something which we can, which you can hold, focus on, move at your own pace, put aside and come back, and it’s not disturbing you, it’s actually allowing you to gather together your thoughts, concentrate, and try different solutions as you solve the puzzle.

So this is something that many such people, many medical educational professionals, praise in our products. And this is why they them to children who have most of them from what I remember, had difficulty concentrating. So this is with this well such choice come in handy. Because they foster your ability to concentrate.

Jason Hsieh: That’s a good side benefit of the toy for sure. What other feedback have you [00:21:00] received on either kids, parents or educators? 

Leonid Shafir: I get a lot of different channels from parents, from toy stores, because they demonstrate toys to potential customers and the customers will purchase such toys as they usually share their experiences that they’re having played with them, there are lots of different experience primarily related to, presentation to packaging, which are technical aspects, but not very interesting for this interview because there are lots of recommendations in terms of gameplay and when we’re developing new toys, we are looking into feedback we receive from parents, from customers in general, not just parents and from, Toy stores, because they’re also our customers.

For example, this particular product, the latest model was developed in the response to current present day requirements and challenges, because nowadays the economic situation is soft. Many people are not doing very well financially, so they cannot spend a lot of money on toys. This is why we developed with something that’s [00:22:00] enough. As I said, fidgeting elements so you can relax and unwind by fidgeting things in your head. And this is something that we hope will be good for stores as well because it’s a quick sell. 

Jason Hsieh: The website so people can see it a little bit better, because it’s all, it’s very small.

Leonid Shafir: And if you keep scrolling, you will see master and apprentice. No sorry scroll scrolling horizontally, not vertically, because you moved away from, 

Jason Hsieh: Oh, sorry. 

Leonid Shafir: So this is apprentice, this is master. 

Jason Hsieh: Yeah, this is the more difficult version. 

Leonid Shafir: Larger ones. Apprentice is the for us. Toy or something for which we do crowdfund. I did crowdfunding campaign. So it was the first in line. Everything else came later. 

Jason Hsieh: I see. How do you come up with this new key chain idea? 

Leonid Shafir: Feedback, observation, and customers and toy stores asking for something small, cheap and multifunctional. You have several functions in the key chain, it’s fidget, and it’s a puzzle.

Jason Hsieh: Yeah, it is a [00:23:00] fidget puzzle. It’s a keychain, yes, okay. And I know you mentioned about STEM in the very beginning. When you do your puzzle toy design, how do you try to incorporate the STEM principles into your design? 

Leonid Shafir: Are very broad. They can be narrowed down, which happens, for example, in an academic setting when they’re yeah, linked to a specific academic agenda. But in toy products, they be pre present in different ways. Most an advantage and disadvantage the disadvantages because stem became a buzz. Advantages because you can incorporate elements of STEM into your products that will be truly beneficial to your customers.

In our case, STEM elements mechanics, mechanical engineering is that you see here that teaches you something about gears, about movement, about acceleration, motion, inertia, and so on. And also does that help you intuitively understand mass concepts such as ratios, very [00:24:00] illustrative in this respect.

Jason Hsieh: For sure. Thank you so much for sharing all this insight with us. And I think designing puzzle is definitely a different kind of challenge compared to other type of toy company. 

Leonid Shafir: Because on the one hand, it, doesn’t require a lot of, Not huge, but relatively significant upfront investment, not just financial, but also investment of time and expertise to design such product. But that’s also an advantage because the barrier to entry is relatively high. It’s a niche market and the product on this market, they have longer as an average life cycle. So they’re not like collectibles. 

Jason Hsieh: That’s good. 

The end of today’s interview, one question I always like to ask all the guests toward the end is if you had to share just one piece of advice with someone that’s getting started in the toy industry, what would that be? 

Leonid Shafir: Oh, just one. One piece of advice. You know what I would say? Do a very well analysis of what you want to do and why [00:25:00] it is important for you. And for you intended customers. So understand what you’re doing, how it can be done efficiently. And economic and cost effectively. And if what you’re doing is needed by your would be customers. And when I say analyze, I don’t just mean rational analysis. I also mean intuition because in my work, intuition is very important.

It’s usually intuition, which pushes me towards. a particular product, particular ideas that later emerges and into in detail. So all in all, this is what I can say, but this is an open ended question. I don’t think there is one single answer I can provide.

Jason Hsieh: Of course. Yeah. Everyone has a different opinion for sure. But thank you so much for sharing. How can people find you? 

Leonid Shafir: I’m sure you have my website because you accessed it. So you can, I don’t know how it works. So once you have this interview recorded and uploaded, why don’t you provide my email, my [00:26:00] website, and also my social media accounts? Because I’m on LinkedIn, I am on Twitter, slash X, and I’m on Facebook. I don’t visit these social media often, but I do from time to time. And if you send me an email, I usually respond quite, fast. You can also message me through my website. 

Jason Hsieh: Thank you again so much for your time and It was a pleasure to have you on the show and sharing your story. 

Outro: You’ve been listening to Toy Business Unboxed, hosted by Jason Hsieh. Thank you for joining us and exploring the fascinating world of toys and the ingenuity behind them.

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