How Music and Strategy Collide in Rock and Roll Brouhaha

Jason Hsieh (00:00)
Welcome back to another episode of Toy Business Unboxed. Today we’ll dive into yet again the world of indie game design with Matt, a working musician and the creative mind behind Rock & Roll Brouhaha, a fully playable and expandable card games fusing music and strategy. Matt will share with us how his idea kind of came about and come into life during the COVID pandemic shutdown, and he will also share about his own journey and lesson learned through his process within the industry.

So thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today, Matt.

Matt Shirk (00:31)
Hi Jason, thanks for having me. This is great.

Jason Hsieh (00:33)
So first of all, let’s start at the beginning. What made you even want to design the game in the first place?

Matt Shirk (00:39)
Okay, well, you know, I’ve always loved games. as a kid, you know, Parcheesi board games, making up it games with my army men, played talisman as a teenager, played Dungeons and Dragons, eventually Magic the Gathering, right? Which I loved and was obsessed with for many years. So and it’s kind of funny, you know, I was playing Magic back at Temple University.

And didn’t even realize that down the street the game had been invented like earlier that year. And ⁓ you know, was he probably still being play tested then at that point, right? So that was pretty wild. but really loved the game and have always been into gaming and and had a you know, some of the guys in my game group, I’ve been gaming with them for like 30 years now.

Occasionally we’ve designed games. a buddy of mine and I ⁓ you know, designed our own magic set. so you know, if Wizards of the Coast is listening, yeah, call me. But what happened was it started ⁓ back in sometime around 2008-2009. Okay. I read an article in music magazine. It might have been

paste magazine or Rolling Stone and it talked about the new president at EMI Records. Okay. And he challenged his staff. He said, hey, you know, digital downloads aren’t going away and CD sales are, you know, tapering off. So he challenged his staff and said, How can we promote music in both a physical form and a digital one?

And I read that and it was kind of inspiring. And I said, well, you know what? as a kid, I would listen to albums and I’d look at those liner notes and I’d read the lyrics and who played on what. And it was nice to have something physical to interact with. So even though now it’s all about, let’s say, streaming for the most part, I thought it would be nice to have something physical, tangible that

you know, a music fan could enjoy while they’re listening to music or doing whatever. So at first I kind of thought, well, what if it was like a little token or something people could collect and display? But I guess then I thought, hey, you know, here’s Magic the Gathering, one of my favorite games, trading card game. And you know, what if every musician or sound engineer

or band manager or even their gear or even their songs was a card in a trading card game. and so that was it. That was like, wow, that would be wild. So right that that right there was like the moment that I said, wow, I I could maybe make that. Okay.

Jason Hsieh (03:14)
I see, okay.

Matt Shirk (03:15)
And so you know, that’s 2009. So I I took some index cards and cut them in half and kind of made up just hand drawn a few cards. The first one I did was a guy named Jim James from my morning jacket. I was a fan. now of course I can’t use him in the game. I would need his permission to use his name and likeness, but that was my first card that I drew.

and eventually I had enough where I took it to my game group and I said, hey guys, let’s give this a try and let’s see how this works out and they were nice enough to play it and give feedback, you know, what’s working, what wasn’t. It was a much different game at that time. It was a lot simpler and maybe didn’t have as much of let’s say the game balance that it does now.

But yeah, so every once in a while for many years I would kind of jot little notes down and think about it and what might change. but then and I think this is true for a lot of people, then in 2020, kind of unprecedented COVID lockdown, right? Suddenly everything shut down. and you know, suddenly I had a lot more time on my hands, I didn’t have the commute.

so you know, working at home, the kids didn’t have their club sports or their activities, not a lot of social stuff. And I, you know, I’m a somewhat working musician, so there were no gigs either. so I had a lot of time on my hands, and after I sort of got it out of that stupor of just watching CNN all the time, you know, for like a month, I said, Hey, you know, let’s work on the game.

So my family and I were playing a lot of games at home or occasionally with friends, with masks on, some of the time. but then you know, I I just kind of started fleshing out what it might look like and took some time. But during that lockdown, I really kind of came up with maybe I was like 80% there, or something like that. Right. Yeah. Yeah. and then you know, as the as the lockdowns were kind of lifted.

I met up with, one of my best buddies. I play tested with him just a bunch. We were doing it, you know, every week for quite some time. I had another friend who has had a game store close by. So I’d arrange to meet people there and we play in the store. And you know, I’d listen to them, hear the feedback, take a lot of notes. I’d

a lot of times incorporate their ideas into the game or at least take inspiration from them and kind of put my own spin on it. Yeah. But it’s been great to have a kind of a diverse group of gamers, who were the original play testers and of course since that time a lot of people have played it. and, you know, I d maybe no longer consider people game testers, you know, as you’re just, buying it and playing it, but

Those original guys, you know, I’ve kind of honored them. the venues in the game are all named after them. The original like twelve guys or so, you know, are yeah are memorialized there.

Jason Hsieh (05:56)
Really? Okay, okay.

Mm-hmm. I see. And s throughout this process, how long does it take you for an idea to actually have like a working final copy of the game?

Matt Shirk (06:11)
Well, it was like a gradual process, right? The idea came along in two 2009-ish. but that so long ago that I don’t remember the the exact year even, right? but then till final product where, you know, after play testing and it’s on sale, it was July of 2024 that I put it on the game crafter. And then even after that there was a little tweaking.

I put it up there, but I also attended Metatopia in Morristown, New Jersey, which was great. Played a bunch of other games, talked to a bunch of game designers, and they played my game. And, you know, I I actually listened to some of their feedback and said, ⁓ I got to make a few tweaks. Unpublished, ⁓ put it back up a few months later, with kind of what they said in mind, because I think they were right. you got to kind of

be able to give up some of your ⁓ you know ideas you’re holding on to and for to make for a better product. So ⁓ and then you know re-release earlier twenty four and you know promoting it since that time. But you know you and I met in Origins where yeah had a booth, promoted it there, sold a bunch of copies, made a lot of good contacts.

And plan to continue that, into the future.

Jason Hsieh (07:22)
I see. Because you’re also a mag like a music a mu musician, not just game designer. How will you say your music background really influenced your design process as well?

Matt Shirk (07:32)
Well, a lot of my musical experiences are you know, incorporated into the game somehow. Okay. you know, I’ve been I I started playing the saxophone as a kid, then I I played the guitar as a teenager in the jazz band and chorus in high school. I I have a music degree from Temple. and to this day I’m still playing. I play with a band, you know, called the Pete Eric Band.

I will do pit orchestras occasionally and I also play in the church praise band. So all of those things I tried to, you know, just various things went into the game. I have some cards here, so I’ll give you a few examples. Yeah. please. So here’s the first one is if you can there’s some glare. It’s called merch table, right? And so this is that idea that you know if you were in an unsigned band.

A lot of times you’ll go play somewhere and you have to have one of your friends you know sit at the table and sell your t-shirts and your stickers and all that stuff, and that’s always a fun experience. here’s one called Noise Ordnance. Okay was inspired by a true story ⁓ back when I was maybe early twenties. I was playing with this kind of hard rock metal band.

Jason Hsieh (08:36)
⁓ okay.

Matt Shirk (08:46)
And we were literally playing in a garage. Yeah. and it was getting a little later and we’re pretty loud. So I see at the side door, yeah, an older lady from down the street shows up. She has her house coat and her curlers in. Yeah. And she proceeded to you know, yell at us that you know she has to go to bed, she can’t sleep because we’re too loud. Now

Jason Hsieh (08:53)
I see where this is going. Yes.

Matt Shirk (09:12)
In her defense, we went pretty loud and it was probably after nine o’clock. Yeah. So I did feel kind of bad, but she inspired ⁓ you know, a card in rock and roll brew haha. I see. you know, I’ll give you another example. I haven’t done this yet, of course, because it’s pretty fresh, but yeah, you know, maybe about a month ago or so there was the cold play kiss cam incident where the two people were on the kiss camera at the concert and

Turns out they were having an affair. So

Jason Hsieh (09:41)
Okay, that’s really ago, okay it was.

Matt Shirk (09:44)
Yeah so that’s totally gonna inspire a card in the future, you know, future set, whatever. But you know, stuff like that. In pop culture, I try to make pop culture references. There’s quite a few spinal tap references in the game, just subtle ones. but yeah, so it’s all kind of contributed. And I tried to make a game where you know it’s about the musicians, it’s not just about lead singers.

It’s about the whole band kind of coming together to achieve that that gig in the middle of the table and you know, w score points in that.

Jason Hsieh (10:17)
So quick follow up question. So how does the game work exactly? You kind of show a few car and show like a little piece here and there. So

Matt Shirk (10:24)
Okay, so ⁓ you know, as I said, it has elements of resource management. So you first have venue cards that you play that will provide resources. Okay. So for example, here’s a here’s a venue card. Okay. They’re all unique. There’s a hundred and eight cards in the the base set. Yeah but venue cards give you resources.

Okay. And then you use those resources to play musicians. Okay. So here’s an example of a musician card. Yeah. so this drummer here, he’s a drummer, he has talents on this side of the card, and there’s different symbols depending on what ⁓ kind of musician he is. A drummer will have stage presence and rhythm as their abilities, and so what you do is

Jason Hsieh (11:10)
I see.

Matt Shirk (11:12)
these are performance cards that are in the middle of between players, so anyone can attempt to win these performances. But what you have to do is you have to look at what talents are required by each one. Okay and then what if more than one manager attempts that gig, how do you judge the winning manager?

And then down here are victory points. Okay. So that’s what you’re competing for to score points, but then there are also, you know, fun little actions that might impact the game, like you know, return musicians to your hand or ⁓ you know affect how much it might cost you to assign musicians to a gig.

Jason Hsieh (11:35)
So

Matt Shirk (11:53)
Every kind of thing that a trading card does, right? It’s just you’re not attacking one another. You’re really trying to win those gigs. Those gigs.

Jason Hsieh (12:02)
Okay, okay, okay, okay. I see. Yeah, so I guess the winning condition is based on victory point at the end of the game. Right.

Matt Shirk (12:09)
So whoever gets to 20 victory points first is the winner. And the game usually two people who know how to play can probably play a game in 45 minutes. It’s purposefully designed so you can’t have like a first turn kill, so it won’t be over in five minutes. it’s also not gonna take two hours to play for two people.

If you add a third or fourth player, which you can do, you know, it’s maybe twenty, twenty five minutes per player. Once you get the hang of it, right?

Jason Hsieh (12:35)
Okay, okay, okay.

I see, I see, I see. So throughout your journey, what would you say are some of the biggest challenges you

Matt Shirk (12:43)
Well, I’ll say there were two, right? One is if you’re gonna design a game and you wanna get it out there, you might have to come out of your shell a little bit. I consider myself a bit of an introvert and you know you have to assert a little bit to be able to say, Hey guys, you know, I’ve designed something, let’s play it. ‘Cause really I’m the kind of gamer who shows up at game night and it’s like, what are we playing tonight, guys?

so but in this case I had to sort of you know say, hey guys, let’s ⁓ you know play my game for once and you know so you have to do that a little bit. but then also really I had to one thing I knew I’d have to do is get help with artwork. I might be able to draw well enough for a game of Pictionary or something like that, but I knew I’d need help with art.

It so happened I was performing at an outdoor event that was called Avenue of the Arts, not far from where I live. And they had bands there, but it was also about art and they had a lot of artists displaying their work. And I found a guy named Nick Fosnock, who’s from Lancaster, PA, and I loved his style. He has kind of a very colorful, sort of cartoonish style. and I had him do the logo and some of the cards in the game.

and here’s the logo by the way.

Jason Hsieh (13:54)
⁓ okay.

Matt Shirk (13:54)
Okay. So he did that. and it’s fantastic. but then for the card templates, so those ⁓ you know, those musician cards and pretty much all the cards where it’s like I needed somebody to design the template so that I could plug in those symbols and text and whatnot. So the son of a friend of mine is a graphic designer named Evan T. Mallon.

And he understood the mission because he’s also a magic player, but he’s a graphic designer. So I worked with him and he really nailed it. He created something that I can easily go in and you know, add text and add or remove symbols, and he’s made it very easy for me to now create new cards, right? And then the final piece of the puzzle was all that artwork that’s on, every card.

Yeah. all of that stuff. it’s what do I do now? and so I tried a few different things. I realized quickly it’s not gonna be me making the art. First I was gonna use stock photos from Shutterstock. Okay. and so I tried a few of those. Yeah. And they really kind of looked goofy. They looked more like a pharmaceutical ad.

More than a game, right? That didn’t work out. Okay. So then I said, Well, that’s not gonna it’s just not it doesn’t look right. Yeah. So then I explored artificial intelligence. I played around with some AI art. now this is a few years ago now, so I was using Dolly, and it did okay. I think now it’s actually very impressive what AI can do now. But I also came to appreciate

Kind of some of the arguments against AI. Because it is kind of, you know, when it’s doing art or music or things like that, it’s really encroaching on human creativity. I think it’s probably okay if you use it to, you know, design an Excel function on your spreadsheet. But if you’re, you know, when you’re using it for artwork, you’re kind of a little bit, maybe stealing from others.

and so I didn’t really like that vibe. you know, I got that there’s a lot of online debates about it. but eventually I was on Pinterest and I found an artist that I just loved. Her name is well, she goes by Tengu Arts. Yeah.com is her website, and she’s on Twitch and Pinterest and various places, but she agreed to do sixty four pieces for that first set. Okay. ⁓

Which was enough. And ⁓ but did make me promise to not use any AI art. So I intend to keep that promise. Yeah. ⁓ But you know she’s done great and we’ve worked together now on the first expansion, which is out. And then you know, she’s already done art for the one I’ll release in November and for the one next year, and

I’m so in love with the art that it’s become an integral part of the game to the point where, you know, I’ll ask her for something and she’ll send it and it will affect like the game mechanic. Like I’ll change it just because I’m so inspired by, you know, what’s on the card.

Jason Hsieh (16:54)
I see. Okay. Okay. That makes sense. And I want to kind of also expand on your production process because you mentioned earlier you decided to partner with game crafter to kind of produce your game. How was that experience with them? Because actually their owner was also on our podcast before.

Matt Shirk (17:12)
know.

I heard them on your podcast. Yeah. they’re great. If if you’re a game designer and you’re working with proxies and index cards and you’re drawing them up, I think the game crafter is a great next step. It’s very user-friendly and what they produce is just great quality and they can be a one-stop shop in many cases. For me, it’s cards and some tokens.

rule book and box, but they have thousands of different game pieces to choose from. And they can do board games as well. So they can do a board. and it’s just great and a very easy user interface. Full disclosure, I did probably six or seven prototypes where I just ordered like eighteen cards just to see how that would look the art.

You know, with the finished art. And I ended up having to play around a little bit because there’s what’s known as bleed, where you know, if you send them an image, some of that image is getting cut off. When you make a card on the edge. Yeah. And then it also might shift a little bit. So you have to kind of account for that in your design. But yeah, they’re so easy to work with once you kind of get the hang of it.

pretty quick turnaround time. like I said, I did prototypes. For something that’s cheap, you can do like expedited and have it in a few days. But even if you don’t, for me their turnaround is maybe like two weeks, three weeks, you know.

Jason Hsieh (18:33)
Yeah, especially in the prototyping phase, I think that’s definitely a nice choice.

Matt Shirk (18:38)
Yeah, because it’s maybe it’s not a big deal if it’s like, well, it’s costs you know twelve dollars, I can double that and have it in a few days. I’ll probably take them up on that. I’m not gonna do that when it’s fifty dollars and now I’m you know paying a hundred maybe, but yeah, that’s great. And then they also have their online shop where you can, you know, my website links right to their shop. You can go there, you see it, you put it in the cart, you buy it. there’s thousands of games for sale you know, on their shop.

So I’m one or two of them. The base game and the expansion now, Rock & Roll Brouhaha is up there. But yeah, it’s been great. and very high quality. Yeah.

Jason Hsieh (19:10)
I see. Thank you so much.

So what is next for the brand? you mentioned about the expansion. Besides the expansion, what else are you currently working on? Are you planning to do a relaunch? What is the plan for the upcoming years?

Matt Shirk (19:24)
For the end of this year in the next, I now have a friend that’s helping me with video and social media. That’s a place where I could use some help. I am working on a second expansion now. It’s called the Tone Wars, and it’s all about gear acquisition syndrome, which if you’re a musician, that’s a affliction that affects a lot of guitarists, bassists, and drummers.

And that’s where they have to have the latest and greatest gear. Always on YouTube buying the new thing, the new hot item, the new guitar pedal, the new cymbal. Maybe when you should instead be practicing. So I’m definitely guilty of that sometimes myself. But it’s the whole set is really devoted to that aspect ⁓ of music. and I’m having a lot of fun with that. So the art’s ready,

That’ll be out by November, but what’s also exciting about that set is that will have the first real life musician in the card set. Okay. So it’s somebody who’s doesn’t live too far from me, but I’ve been talking to him. He kind of gets the idea. So for him, it’s a promotional tool, right? I’m gonna put that in front of people.

Jason Hsieh (20:19)
⁓ okay.

Matt Shirk (20:33)
That would otherwise not have ever heard of him and his band. So that’s what he’s going to get out of it. And what I get out of it is, okay, well, this you’re kind of our guinea pig, and let’s see how we can incorporate you into the game. Yeah. So I’m very excited about that. And that should be out by November time frame. I’m also gonna attend some card shows coming up in November, card shows.

Jason Hsieh (20:37)
Yeah, yeah.

Nice.

Matt Shirk (20:58)
And also a music memorabilia show. Which, you know, because of the nature of the game, I’m trying a few things like that. I might hit a guitar show, Because I’m trying to appeal to, you know, music fans and musicians. So I’ll be doing that. and of course, as we discussed, I’m looking into quotes for mass production.

Jason Hsieh (21:12)
Make sense.

Matt Shirk (21:17)
So I hope to have that figured out by next year because while the game crafter’s great, the production cost still comes in a little higher than, you know, something that you can get on Amazon and pay for warehouse space and things like that. So looking into ways to to reduce costs a little bit so I can get out there right now, but I’m very happy right where I am with y the game crafter and how that’s worked out. I see.

And then you know, next year ⁓ once again I’ll either attend probably Origins or Gen Con. and also PAX Unplugged.

Jason Hsieh (21:52)
Okay. How about GAMA? Are you going to GAMA as well?

Matt Shirk (21:55)
GAMA being origins or is there

Jason Hsieh (21:57)
GAMA also have a show called GAMA. They have a B2B show. So

Matt Shirk (22:01)
Okay. maybe, maybe. That’s possible. So this year I was planning to go to PAX because I’m not really far from Philadelphia. I wanted to see how Origins went. And of course I loved it, it went great. But after Origins it was too late. PAX was already sold out for vendors, and I’m fairly certain it’s at this time, you know, sold out for even visitors. Like you can’t even get

ticket anymore. So ⁓ obviously very popular. So good for them. ⁓ but you know I’ll have to sign up a little earlier next year. I think January, February is when I’ll be looking to do that. So I do intend to visit those and exhibit the game more. and of course, you know, designing and having new musical experiences and putting those down on on cards as well.

Jason Hsieh (22:46)
Yeah, that sounds like a good plan. So as we’re kind of wrapping up today’s interview, if you have to share just one piece of advice with someone that’s just getting started within the toys and game industry, what would that be?

Matt Shirk (22:58)
Okay. well I think it would be, you know, make your prototype. and it can just be index cards and pieces from other games and, you know, paper. But then get out to you know a game shop that’s into that sort of thing or a group or go to an unpub event. You know, they had it at Origins, but they also have their own unpub conventions or Metatopia if you’re on the East Coast.

Forgive me, I don’t know anything on the West Coast. So I don’t know what goes on there. But and then you know, play test, listen to people’s feedback. But at the same time, you know, it’s okay to stay true to your vision, right? Because some people might have their own ideas about how your game should work and they might want to change it maybe a little too much. So it’s okay to ignore them, follow your vision. But if you’ve made something that you

Enjoy playing. And you can honestly say, yes, I’ve made something that I like to play. Chances are good there’s somebody else out there who would also like to play, right? You just have to find them and connect with them. So, you know, I’d say get out there and do it. And then when you are ready to take a just a slight next step, the game crafter is a really easy way to get in, make your prototypes, get a few copies, give them to your friends, but also you know, then

take that that next step and you know, that’s kind of where I am, just ⁓ you know, I’m one step away from just paper and pen here, but ⁓ you know, so far it’s been great.

Jason Hsieh (24:23)
I see. Thank you so much for sharing that. That’s a really good piece of advice as well. So for our listeners that’s interested to learn a little bit more about you and the game that you designed, where is the best place for people to find you online?

Matt Shirk (24:34)
Okay, well the best place is probably my website, rock and rollbruhaha dot com. That’s R O C K N R O L L B R O U H A H A. rocknrollbrouhaha.com or you can go right to the game crafter and search Brouhaha, B-R-O-U-H-A-H-A.

And you know, that’s a way to have a look at the game. I’d encourage you to do so, check it out if you like music of really any type, because I’ve tried to represent various styles in the game. Maybe check it out, go to the website and you know stay tuned for future sets.

Jason Hsieh (25:15)
Sounds good. Thank you so much again for being on our show today and sharing your journey and some of your experience within the industry.

Matt Shirk (25:22)
Well, thank you so much for having me, Jason. You know, I’m learning a lot and learning from you as well.

Jason Hsieh (25:27)
Thank you. And for our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of Toy Business Unboxed Podcast. We hope you have enjoyed today’s conversation, find it insightful and inspiring. If you like what you have heard, be sure to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite platform so you never miss an episode. We really appreciate your support and would love it if you can leave us a review and share the podcast with your friend and colleague. For more resource, tips and the latest updates within the toys and game industry, visit our website at toy-launch.com.

Join the conversation and connect with us on social media using #ToyBusinessUnboxed. We’ll love to hear your feedback and suggestion for future episodes. Until next time, keep innovating, keep creating, keep bringing joys through toys. This is Jason Hsieh signing off on the Toy Business Unboxed podcast. We’ll see you in the next episode. Thank you so much, everyone.