How Education Unboxes Creativity: Max Schafer’s Educational Vision

EP009_04-03-24_Max Schafer

Intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to Toy Business Unboxed, your gateway to the secrets of the toy industry. Here, Jason Hsieh, a toy entrepreneur and expert in the field, will guide you through the enchanting world of toy design, marketing, and manufacturing. Now let the unboxing begin. 

Jason Hsieh: Welcome back to Toy Business Unboxed. In today’s episode, I’m excited to explore the creative landscape of educational toys with Max, the mastermind behind Art Rod and the president of Underdog Educational. Join us as we unravel the story behind Art Rod and dive into Max’s journey of creating the wonderful product that he has created.

Let’s unbox the power of creativity together. Thank you so much for being on our show today, Max.

Max Schafer: Oh, I’m thrilled. I’m very happy to be here talking with you. 

Jason Hsieh: Yeah, same here. Can you start out with sharing with our audience about the inspiration behind the creation of Art Rod? And how is it different than the traditional educational toys?

Max Schafer: Oh, sure. Let’s see. This is the actual product [00:01:00] here. So you know what I’m talking about, this is called Art Rods. They’re foam rods with a wire sender that bend and twist. The amazing thing, unusual about a lot of these toys, is that it will actually stay in the shape that you put it into and it has snaps on the end so you can snap them together or snap one to another to make really long chains, things like jump ropes and things like that.

It’s a very unusual product, but it is significantly different than any other toy on the market. There’s really nothing like it because it has certain features that are unique to art rods. For example, like Legos, they snap together, but they’re soft, unlike Lego. Like a balloon animal, you can bend and twist it and shape it into different kind of objects.

Jason Hsieh: I love that example. For those of you that’s listening, please also watch the video on YouTube where Max is actually showing us some of the example of what [00:02:00] it can become using the creativity behind the toys that he has designed. 

Max Schafer: And unlike Play-Doh, this is nice and soft and squishy like Play-Doh. Kids love that, but they snap together and you can make real inventions. You can go beyond the idea of this is a toy. Hopefully I can show you some of the things where it goes beyond. This is way more than a toy, this is something very special. And that was my idea behind it. My idea behind it was starting with these hair curlers. Now as an inventor you think a hair curler is a hair curler, but it could be more and I was thinking you can use hair curlers for making letters of the alphabet, but hair curlers if you can see how small they are, they’re really not good for making elaborate letters. 

For this one you could very easily make any letter like that quickly and easily. And as a kindergarten teacher, I was using them every day in my classroom. [00:03:00] Every day we do a different letter of the alphabet. So it was about creating and then every time you’re done, you just straighten it out, they keep it in their desk, and they reuse it. But with the snaps, you could easily do things like the letter O or the letter Q, things like that. Right at the beginning, I was thinking I could use this more than just letters of the alphabet. So many things, toys, games, inventing things and creating your own inventions, things that go beyond. 

We even got into light of things. Some of the things I show you today, it’s wow you could use this for so much more than a toy. For example, right after this, I’m going to the Braille Institute in Los Angeles and you could imagine this. As a terrific guide rail, right? So it can protect people from. Bumping into things that could use them to lead people in different directions. It can be used as insulation, put it around a cup and you won’t burn your fingers.

So, what a great [00:04:00] tool just for that industry. But for education, the number one thing I hear, it’s a great fidget toy. You just sit there and it’s quiet and you can squeeze it. But the thing that really sells me, the thing I love about this, Is the fact that when I see like a two year old or a three year old, all I have to do is reach out there and they take it, they just play with it and play with it and play with it and you can’t get it out of their hands because it’s that they just love it. They don’t need to make anything with it. It just makes them happy. It’s a happiness story for them. It reaches a gamut of ideas and exploration, especially with the older children. 

We think is this is for kindergarten? No, you see some of the stuff we do. It is really adult level. You could do stop motion animation. We have professional artists creating art with it. We have our own separate pack that we sell to artists [00:05:00] that is a complete set of secondary colors, black, green, purple, a whole set of colors that are not in the main set that they use to create their own art with, plus it mixes. I’m sorry, I’m going on and on. I’ve got so many ideas. It mixes with the hair curler so you can really create incredible objects with it. 

Jason Hsieh: I think you already touched on it. One of my follow up questions is. 

What are all the different unique features and benefits? To use Art Rod in term of promoting like autistic expressions and also maybe help with some of the cognitive development in children as Well 

Max Schafer: Yeah, basically to me, I’m all about creativity. I’m a creative person. Everything I do is about how to explore how to create ideas and this is a product that’s using ideas to create more ideas. So in terms of imagination, applies to so many areas. Now, this is the new version, this is a version I sell for in [00:06:00] stores, but when I originally started selling them, I’ll show you the pack.

 When I started selling them. I have to back up to see. 

Jason Hsieh: This much larger. Yeah. It’s very. 

Max Schafer: Yeah. Compared to this. Its a full meter long, exactly the same thing but comes with 30, comes with ball connectors and comes with two sets of stickers, incredible stickers. So you can make things like eyes and mustaches. You can see in here it comes with stickers you can apply to them. 

Jason Hsieh: The eyes, okay.

Max Schafer: So, basically you could use this. When I sell these, we sell them to schools and they prefer this pack because you get 30 in them, enough for an entire classroom to use the entire year. You saw how when you stretch them out you can reuse them over again.

This size for classroom set. We got an artist set with different colors. This set [00:07:00] and then we have accessories that go with it too. 

Jason Hsieh: This is looking really cool. 

Max Schafer: Right? So there’s the eyes from the stickers, right? We’ve got hands that you could buy from us on our website where you could do different hands and different feet. Actual tennis shoes that you could put on for whatever creature you have. There’s even underwear this is from a company called Archie McPhee that we sell through our catalog.

So the idea is you could be Expanding ideas and again adding smaller features, but the newest thing that we have is adding lights And you can add lights to the artwork, but we can also add lights to make signs, to make hats, to make your own neon sign. 

Jason Hsieh: Yeah, I saw it at your booth at Toy Fest.

Max Schafer: What I just did after that, I got a really long one, a meter long one. Put it on my bicycle, but I’ll show you how it [00:08:00] looks. This is incredible. Here’s a hat. Here’s how it lights up with a different animal, with the different characters. At the show we were just at, we met this guy. He is a still walker and he does jump rope. He jumps rope while on stilts, super long jump rope. I made him a jump rope. I haven’t given him to be yet, but I want to show you this incredibly long jump rope. You can’t even see it in the picture. It’s so huge meter long and it lights up.

This is an actual jump rope. I can’t show you the whole thing because it’s over meters long. 

Jason Hsieh: Your product is so unique. 

What are some of the challenges that you encounter during the development and marketing of the product and how do you overcome them?

Max Schafer: The, challenges I have is to focus it because it’s used for so many different things that you have to focus [00:09:00] on where is it going to make the most money or where is it going to fit the best need? For me, it’s the afterschool program. This is sells throughout the South and different afterschool programs where they make different sea animals, they’d make a different sea animal every week. That’s one of my best sellers. For example, one week they’ll do a crab, they’ll do a starfish, or they’ll do, just every week, a different kind of animal.

So that’s one way is focusing on where it sells best through schools, but I’m trying to break into stores and number one, Amazon. 

Jason Hsieh: Yeah, that’s definitely a big platform. 

Can you discuss some of the success story or positive feedback you have received from educators or parents who have used Art Rod in the educational setting so far?

Max Schafer: Oh, absolutely. We won all these awards. We won this award called, play on words. It’s an educational award. We’ve won about four or five of [00:10:00] them Maker Faire awards, but this educator from that site wrote an incredibly long article about the value of this in the terms of education. But basically, number one, if you’re working with primary kids, there’s letters of the alphabet and that’s where the idea came from. So for example, doing the letters Z or the letter O or whatever. Educationally you can use it not just for letters, but language arts for word games. We put together all these free resources on the website, games that are educationally based to deal with different academic areas, math games, social language, arts, games where you use the objects for all physical education.

You make your own physical education equipment out of it. You want to jump rope? Make it. You need a five meter long jump rope, make it. It works. It actually works. Hula hoops, [00:11:00] frisbees, hoops and not only are making your own games, you’re making your own inventions. For example, one of the inventions, basketball hoop hats. And you throw this out. Everyone can have their own hat. What a terrific invention, right? This alone is worth the price of the product, where you can just go and try to throw it on each other’s hats, right? Isn’t that fun? Oh look, I just made another invention, a little mask or whatever.

Jason Hsieh: That’s actually a cool game for the kids, for sure. 

Max Schafer: Here’s another thing. Make your own hanger. Design your own hanger. Here it is. We’ve got these teeth you can make that, they’re actually baby pacifiers. These are iPad cases, so if you drop your iPad, it won’t get damaged. 

Jason Hsieh: Oh, interesting. That’s a lot of different use cases. 

Max Schafer: Using just a single art rod, you can make this wonderful soap dish, just using one art rod, no decoration. What a terrific [00:12:00] idea, right? Very simple, simplistic ideas. You can create incredible amount of things with them. 

Jason Hsieh: Yeah. So let’s talk about like for 2024. Are you planning on launching and creating new additional version of it this year for to add to your product line?

Max Schafer: You can see what I’ve done is I’ve created for the past couple of years, develop creative materials, finalized it, make it the best product that I could make it. And now it’s okay, everything’s ready to go. It’s so rich in features that I’m, ready to take it to the next step. That’s where I’m talking to you about helping me with this, is taking that to the next step through Amazon.

That’s the idea. I’m still working on other projects. I’ve got a couple other things. This is my main thing. I’m a retired teacher, so it’s all about education. It’s all about play and it’s about fun. The fun thing about this.

Jason Hsieh: Have you tried to just [00:13:00] send some sample out to school and get more feedback? Have you tried it that way as well? 

Max Schafer: Oh, yeah. I go to conferences. It sells out at every conferences, at teachers, everywhere. On my website, tons of Teacher evaluations. I’ve got kids are doing product endorsements for me. I’ve got four or five videos on that. Really excellent videos. So I’ve got endorsements up the kazoo as the term goes.

I got a lot of people say wonderful things about it. I’m not a marketing person, so it hasn’t been out there successfully, even though it should be. That’s why I want to take it to the next level. It should be promoted in a way that represents the quality of this product. It’s just, I’m not a marketing person but it definitely is in that stage where, yeah everybody knows it’s a great product. Everybody tells me it’s a great product. 

Jason Hsieh: For sure. Definitely something we at Toy Launch and our marketing team can definitely help. 

What other way that have you tried to [00:14:00] collaborate with the educator or expert in the child development to inform the design and the usage of the Art Rod so far?

Max Schafer: For example, in the after school program they wanted specifically a 12 week set so they can work on a different object every week. So they decide, okay you design all the materials, you just design the instructions and we’ll buy your product and we’ll sell it to them.

So we’ve developed curriculum that goes with the art rods. If you want something that’s pre planned that you can definitely have success, you can go in that direction which is a great way to go. But the idea of just putting it in people’s hands and saying, that’s how I sell it. That’s how this product gets solved. I don’t have to say a word. All I have to do is put it in your hand, let go. And see what you do with it and almost 100 percent of the time people’s faces light up and they just start [00:15:00] bending and twisting and playing with it and smiling. Yeah, 

Jason Hsieh: maybe you can also consider to create more online resources like different video of teaching the teachers how to use it into their curriculum and collaborate and incorporate into what they’re using in the classroom. 

Max Schafer: Like I say, I’ve got tons of resources all over Facebook, over my website, and maybe working with you, we can even do more. But in terms of resources and explaining videos, I’ve got plenty. I’ve got plenty. It’s just a matter of not connecting with the people who needs to see them. And we can make more too. But I need to look at where we can be the most effective for getting the word out. Certainly we’ve got plenty of justification, plenty of fun, great ideas. Let me show you a couple more things. All right.

In my warehouse, I’ve got hundreds of these. Here’s a light up motorcycle. If you look at my website, you’ll see just literally hundreds of things. I’ve got a Star Trek, the [00:16:00] Enterprise, made out of art rods. And somebody just made it on the spot in front of me. I made a menorah out of it that I gave to my brother out of art rods, right? So anything you can think of. But signage, here’s one, this Dodger’s hat. It lights up. It lights up. This is so bright, it lights up the whole street. When I was at Dodger Stadium about 10 or 12 people came up to me, wanting that. Finally, a security guard came over to me and he said, Where can I get one? 

Jason Hsieh: That’s crazy. 

Max Schafer: But they’re franchising rules that I don’t even want again, you got to focus your product in one area and that’s okay, do I really want to go there, but yeah, your own things, it just there’s so many things. Just look at the website. I got so many resources there. And you want more, I can make more, but yeah. 

Jason Hsieh: [00:17:00] Going back to the marketing strategy, what have you tried so far that has been successful? You talk about reaching out to school, and talking to the teachers, any other marketing strategy that, that was working for you so far?

Max Schafer: The most accessible one is going to conventions and getting in people’s hands. Things like Amazon. Things where, because this is so unusual and people don’t really get it. Any website, any places like that, it’s harder to sell because like I say, you got to get it into people’s hands.

Jason Hsieh: Yeah. That’s why the importance of video marketing is going to be critical for your product to really show a video, how to use it. Different user cases and really highlight it because just the image of it alone, just like you say, it’s hard for the buyer to understand all the potential of the product.

Max Schafer: You can see the incredible potential. There’s so many directions you can go in, you’re just showing pictures of it. People just don’t get it. So yeah, anything I can do, to physically be there or to get people to show [00:18:00] it. That’s always been the most successful. 

Jason Hsieh: Got it. Are there any upcoming development or expansions that you’re planning for the Art Rod line? 

Max Schafer: The, areas that I’m hoping to get into are people with special needs. Like people who wants some fidgety toy that have attention deficit areas. That would be a really nice market to share these ideas for. I’ve got plenty ideas, but again I want to focus on getting it into people’s hands before I spread it out even further cause I’ve got so much. I’ve got the artist version. I’ve got the school version. I’ve got the home pack.

Yeah, let’s sell those first before I get even more, more. 

Jason Hsieh: Have you tried any influencer marketing campaign in the past? 

Max Schafer: Oh yes. Oh yes. I’ve got people, you should see some of my influencer videos. Outstanding, amazing webcast videos, kids raving about it. [00:19:00] Unfortunately again, since it’s not in people’s hands, It has done nothing for me.

Nothing. Nothing. Yeah, so Yeah, so any efforts to market it, which is not my area of expertise has fallen short. That’s why I’m coming to you to be my savior. Save me, save this product, help us get it in people’s hands because you agree that it should be in people’s hands, right?

Jason Hsieh: Especially in the school setting, I see there’s definitely a lot of implications on how to use it. And that’s something we at Toy Launch, with our own in house brand, LakiKid, we are also trying to get into more school because a lot of the teachers also buy files for their educational setting, for their sensory room. So that’s why I think that might be some additional implication on using the product, maybe in the sensory room setting to help the kids in that kind of environment as well. 

Max Schafer: Have you got it into, have you got your products into any educational [00:20:00] catalogs? 

Jason Hsieh: Not in the catalog, but we are definitely a lot of school buy from us directly.

Max Schafer: Okay. Because yeah, there’s some great catalogs. Specifically for your kind of product, like Kaplan that maybe it should be, and that’s where I need to go to. They want it in there, but I haven’t got it in there yet. 

Jason Hsieh: Yeah. I think we as entrepreneur, there’s so many things we can do in the toy industry, there’s so many different venues, like you mentioned earlier, it’s really about focusing and choosing like one particular area that you really want to hone in on, and then you’ll see a lot more success instead of trying to talk to.

If you try to talk to everyone, then you connect with no one. We really need to be careful on what is the main audience that we’re going after, and to speak directly to them, and show the product directly to them, and like creating all the different resources around one target audience.

Then once we get more success, that’s where you can expand and talk to a secondary audience later on.

Max Schafer: I agree 100%. Yeah, I agree. And we know what [00:21:00] it is. We know it’s education. 

Jason Hsieh: For sure, I think that’s definitely a lot of room for us to partner as well. And this month we’re also doing an autism awareness giveaway with a lot of the the brand that we manage.

For those of you watching, it’s autism awareness month. And my son is also on the autism spectrum, I’m a huge advocate for special education and also for my son, obviously. And yeah, I just want to share that.

But as well, winding down in today’s interview, can you also share with the audience, one piece of advice for someone that’s just getting started in the toy industry, what would be your number one advice?

Max Schafer: Yes. For me personally, it’s minimizing risk. Because if you can start off slowly and build your brand up. Minimizing how much money that you put into it, then you’ll always be successful because your losses will be small. And for me now that I’m at the point where, yeah, it’s been [00:22:00] successful up to now, but now I’m at a point where I need to take it bigger and I’m ready and working with you will be the biggest risk that I’m willing. That’s why it’s a hard decision. It’s a big risk for me being so small. It’s a big, risk. So I appreciate your patience with me to try to make something happen. Cause it hasn’t taken off like it should and in some ways it’s a bit of a gamble. So again, I want to minimize that risk as much as possible and say, Okay if it fails, I’m still going to be okay. For new adventures. 

And for me, the core is how do you measure success? Is it really through the money? For me, it’s like putting the hand of that three year old and seeing that smile. That’s really worth it. That is really worth or to see somebody playing games with it or creating incredible artwork. It’s an incredible pleasure in ways even better than money because you’re really helping people.

Jason Hsieh: For sure. I 100 [00:23:00] percent resonate with that. That is my mission behind my brand is to empower, support, educate, Kids with learning differences so they can also live a life of possibility.

That’s our mission statement, actually. So I 100 percent align with your vision and what you want to do with your product. 

Max Schafer: Good. We’re on the same page. I think we can work together. 

Jason Hsieh: Thank you so much for being on the podcast today. And where can the audience find you? 

Max Schafer: Good. We’ve got a brand new website. It’s called artrods.biz so check that out. Also lots of videos and pictures on Facebook. So many and free resources online too. But I think the number one thing here is look for us on Amazon, right? Look for us on Amazon and you’ll see us there.Hopefully. 

Jason Hsieh: For sure. Thank you so much for being on the show today and thank you for sharing your [00:24:00] stories, sharing about your wonderful product with our audience today. It was my honor to have you today. 

Max Schafer: Appreciate this wonderful opportunity and maybe you can do something for this company that would make you feel that you’ve done something important because I feel it’s important and you just need help, right?

Sometimes you just need help. 

Jason Hsieh: Yeah. Thank you so much for your time today. 

Max Schafer: Great. Thank you so much. 

Outro: You’ve been listening to Toy Business Unboxed, hosted by Jason Hsieh. Thank you for joining us and exploring the fascinating world of toys and the ingenuity behind them.

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