How Music and Toys Connect: Michael Wiley’s Vision for Education

EP083_09-13-24_Michael Wiley

Intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to Toy Business Unboxed, your gateway to the secrets of the toy industry. Here, Jason Hsieh, a toy entrepreneur and expert in the field. “Every product we develop is really inspired by some of the real life experience that we have with our son.” “60 percent of all toys last year were sold on Amazon.”

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Jason Hsieh: Hello, welcome to another episode of Toy Business Unboxed. I’m your host, Jason Shea, and today we’re diving into the world of musical education with a very unique twist, using color to teach and inspire creativity. Our guest, Michael, today, is a world winning composer, musician, and [00:01:00] educator who have developed musical color, a visual, a music color system that helped learner of all ages understand music series and play instruments was ease. And Michael’s journey started with University of Arizona that lead him to develop being a system of making learning music more fun and today’s interview is going to be, will be talking about how the he with his company trying to bridge the toy and the music education industry together. Thank you for joining me on today’s podcast episode.

Michael Wiley: Yeah, you’re welcome. I’m really excited to be here, Jason.

Jason Hsieh: What inspired you to create musical color to begin with?

Michael Wiley: Yeah. So I come from a family of engineers, world class engineers and artists. So we’re very creative people and when I went into college I started off engineering ’cause the family pressures and whatnot. I did about two years of engineering at a SU and I really enjoyed it. But the more and more I saw down the road I got disillusioned with where I was going. And I, at the same time, I [00:02:00] was also seeing a lot of other students carrying their guitars around. And I was like, man, that’s what I wanna do. I wanna carry my guitar around. I took a little sabbatical, I restructured my approach, I switched my majors and I did about half a year at a SU in guitar performance. And I really enjoyed that, it was a creative outlet for me and it was more in line with where I was going. And I took a little time off and I was thinking to myself is this something I really wanna do? It’s gonna be completely different. My family wasn’t too happy about it because I was supposed to go down and take over the family business, and so you, I got a lot of flack from my grandfather, but they came around eventually. So I at some point I realized that the U of A had a really awesome guitar performance program, and I heard that it was like one of the best in the country. So I was like, man, I gotta U of A. And secretly I was also chasing a girl, so that didn’t work out. But I discovered really amazing things about myself. I was learning music, I was playing music, I [00:03:00] was playing guitar. It was my passion. It was what I wanted to do. And then at some point, about a year and a half or two years into it, I started to get disillusioned again. ‘Cause I was hearing all these things about, oh, you gotta, you’re gonna have to practice like 10 hours a day and to even be a guitarist, a performer. And I thought, man, I can’t do that. I got my hands in too many baskets. I love to do a bunch of different things. I was getting a little disillusioned and as I was getting into upper divisional courses I just realized, you know what, it just hit me overnight. I’m going to be an engineer of sounds.

And so I switched into composition

Jason Hsieh: Yes.

Michael Wiley: And I was able to marry those two sides of my family together. And those kind of two genetic dispositions that I had. And I went into composition and it was great. I loved it. And then as it progressed, I got, in my third year, things started really getting serious.

I’m not a classically trained performer or musician. And i, started taking, I was, I found myself in jazz improv class that I was taking, and I was falling outta key and people were looking at me funny who’s [00:04:00] this guy? And, I was also composing a lot on my guitar. And I’d be playing wild different chords that just sounded so amazing and Sonora. But they had open voicings and they were just really complex chords and I was having a really hard time like how do I write these down and I have to go to charts and in books and, things like that.

So I thought to myself, wow, what if there was just some visual cue on my guitar that told me exactly what notes I was playing? It would solve both of those problems, and that’s exactly what I did. I started cutting out construction paper. Tape colored construction paper and taping it to my guitar. And I came in and my musicianship improved significantly. And I was able to immediately start writing down what I was playing because I could look down and see exactly what I was playing. Then I could write it on the staff. And so immediately it solved a bottom up problem and a top down problem.

Jason Hsieh: And for the listener that’s listening to today’s episode, I [00:05:00] also have the website pulled out on the screen. So if you want to see what the product we’re talking about and discussing on today’s episode. Feel free to watch it on our YouTube channel. Then you can see the actual product that we are talking about.

Michael Wiley: So inspired that part of me and my teachers were amazed. Of course, some of them thought it was really weird the traditionalists were, saying things like so, what are we gonna play in the key of pur purple now? And being a creative, I was trying to solve a problem that I was having in college. Now, mind you this did lead to further developments and understanding music for me personally, and uncovering deep secrets, which has helped me with teaching children, which has helped me with my composition. And I’ve even had no notoriety. I, was able to take third place in an international composition competition in Tokyo, Japan, the Toro Taco orchestral composition competition in 2002. And yeah, my life has just been really awesome since then.

Jason Hsieh: Oh nice, And since we’re [00:06:00] talking about the musical color and how you can potentially help kids who are adult to learn the music faster, based on your experience, compared to a traditional kind of instruction model, how much faster does having the color on the instrument itself really help?

Michael Wiley: It helps everybody tremendously, but especially children because children love color. They can’t keep their hands off it, they just gotta touch it. They gotta feel it. They gotta reach out and touch the colors that they’re seeing. Plus it’s a natural thing that they’re already familiar with. So it’s like a language they already understand. You don’t need to teach it. That’s basically what happened so I so, kids would immediately start grabbing an instrument that has color over the exact same instrument that doesn’t and instrument is very ominous for children at the beginning. They look at ’em, they see some adult playing ’em, and they’re like, wow, this is blowing my mind. It’s amazing, but I have no idea how to approach this thing. Big learning curve. Getting the child to even just hold it or wanna [00:07:00] hold an instrument,

Jason Hsieh: wanna hold it.

I know you have many different systems, so besides the stickers, what else is come within the product if, people purchase?

Michael Wiley: after I started learning all this stuff, I realized that the pedagogical possibilities for this simple system was really endless and profound. And so I created I started creating a different or a bunch of different types of resources where you could see scales and see chords immediately. And most times people learn a chord, they learn it in first position they learn it through pictures and they learn it down here, a GC. If you will see the colors that you’re playing, all of a sudden your brain starts to grasp other patterns. You see the patterns and you can see them everywhere on your neck. And you’re like, wow, I can play that here and I can play it here and I can play it here in an upper register. Or can I play them like this upside down. Yeah, that’s called an inversion and so you start it, it’s really a [00:08:00] bridge way to help them teach, to help them learn more complex things about music.

Jason Hsieh: Yeah. And you have it for a lot of different instrument too, right? Not just guitar. I see you on the website. You have Ukulele and a whole bunch of other instrument as well.

Michael Wiley: Yeah, And they’re all custom designed. It took me a long time to find the right sticker because it’s, a very demanding need for. Sticker has to be able to do I didn’t want them to break down because there’s a lot of rubbing that happens on these stickers. So luckily I was able to find a manufacturer here in the United States that not only makes ’em for me, but all the materials are actually made here in the United States too, which keeps costs down and it’s been really great. So as technology has gotten better and better, the solutions has just been easier and easier to solve.

Jason Hsieh: Do you also think the musical color is helpful for kids with special needs as well?

Michael Wiley: Yeah, absolutely. Kids with special needs, they sometimes they may not [00:09:00] be very good verbal communicators. But it doesn’t mean they’re not thinking like regular kids. They’re still having thoughts in their minds. They’re still having epiphanies, they’re still seeing things and they wanna express themselves color is something that’s natural in the world. Like I was saying ear earlier, it’s a language you don’t even really have to teach. It’s something that kids have learned since they were born just by looking at the world around them, of course they wanna reach out and, touch it.

So the concept of connecting sounds to colors is a really great way to get them to understand those two things. But it’s also scientifically based because the proportions of how color is laid out on the spectrum and how music is laid out they overlap. So that was one thing that I really studied for a long time to see how they’re correlated because I’m very interested in creating a universal coding system that is accepted.

Jason Hsieh: Okay. Okay. Okay.

Michael Wiley: Throughout history there’s been so many approaches, and I’m not the first we’ve been doing it [00:10:00] since Sumaria, chinese, many cultures have had Color coding systems, but for the most part it’s been arbitrary because of synesthesia. Kids with special needs sometimes a lot of them are, synesthetic and they hear color or they see music and this just offers a new way for them to approach it and just gives teachers a tool so that they can actually reach these kids. And a lot of these instances, I see some of these kids accelerate other normal verbal kids because they’re so highly intelligent and so desperate to communicate.

Jason Hsieh: How do you think toys and music education can work together? And how do we use toys to educate kids about music more as well.

Michael Wiley: I’m sure that your audience has seen many toys that have sounds or play music. One toy is not colorful, right? It’s all about attracting the child, bringing the child to it so that they can reach out, grab it, touch it, play with it, [00:11:00] and you can learn things through them about that. So there’s a in essence musical, co musical instruments are toys. We use them as, professional musicians, but we use them to have fun. That’s really the reason why we play music. You gotta remember that music is not a noun. Music is a verb. That’s something that if you can switch that somehow and provide a tool for people to be able to do something in time in the moment, especially with other people. Develop social skills, soft skills, your ability to express yourself. It creates a lot of harmony.

Jason Hsieh: I see, And I also want to talk a little bit about the business aspect of your current business selling the wonderful product you have. Have you tried to get into some music store as well, and how’s that going? What kind of reception are you getting from the music store owners?

Michael Wiley: 10 years ago when I was trying to do it, I was going, walking [00:12:00] through the doors and I was getting a lot of pushback or a lot of, Hey, you need to talk to this person, and they would never call me back and but lately there’s been a real hunger for this type of thing. In fact, I just sent over a whole suite of musical color stickers to a guy in Rafael in Germany who runs fret look. And he has stickers That you apply to your guitar, but it’s more to make the guitar look cooler. It’s not a utilitarian thing even, though it can slightly be just to show you where the frets are. That’s why these little dots are on the frets because it helps guitarists know where they are. But it doesn’t show you every single note. So he’s really excited. There was another group that was that they, weren’t interested and I was like, Hey, I’m gonna work with the people who are enthusiastic about this. So he’s really excited to see ’em. He asked a lot of questions about the stickers and what they’re made out of and stuff. So obviously he’s gone through the same process I’ve gone through. We need a product that, will, stand the test of time when it’s on the instrument. The thing [00:13:00] is I have a meeting scheduled with lead guitar.

Jason Hsieh: Lead guitar, okay.

Michael Wiley: Yeah, lead guitar and I just saw something on Facebook and I saw some kid, and he was a special needs kid, Zach. And his mother’s just lit up with everything that he’s doing and how his social interaction is improving. And i think he’s slightly autistic. And so I reached out to them and I said and, it turns out they’re right down the street, so nationwide, but they have a school that’s literally like two blocks away from me. So I reached out to them I said, Hey man, maybe there’s some synergy here. Maybe I can help you and help your program, the hard obstacles would be convincing the traditionalists that, that this is not a crutch, this is a tool that’s gonna open up their creativity because if it’s a crutch, how did I end up taking third in an international competition? So I’m very much looking to speaking with them and donating some stickers and maybe doing a showcase we’ll see what happens.

Jason Hsieh: I see. I see. So that’s the offline [00:14:00] channel. How about online channel, like Amazon? How is that going for you so far?

Michael Wiley: I started the process, but I haven’t gone through it the whole way. There’s a big learning curve there. Right now I’m really focused on developing my curriculum and a mastermind club. There’s so many struggling musicians out there retirees, folks who are stuck who love to play the guitar, but every time they go to play the guitar, they find themselves playing the same thing over and over again. So there’s, yeah, I just compiled, I did a big poll on Facebook to find out who I asked them, Hey what, are you most afraid of when playing the guitar and I got an incredible response. It’s been a lot of fun, i’ve learned a lot. Of course a lot of people don’t have fear and a lot of people do. So then there’s all these, different reasons. So, one of my approaches right now is to helping these people realize that there’s a way, there’s a different way to solve this problem. And to get inspired and see new patterns. A lot of times guitarists learn things the same way they look at the picture, oh, this is how you play the [00:15:00] chord. This is how you play that chord. But they don’t learn the nuance. Of how chords are structured so that they can be creative in their own way. Not everybody’s hand is the same. Some are skinny, some are fat, some are short, some are long fingers. Some people like playing up here, some people like playing down here, but this way they can know what they’re playing or what’s being asked of them.

Jason Hsieh: What is your vision for the future of musical color and musical education in general?

Michael Wiley: Other than creating a universal standard scientifically related, mathematically related between sound and color. One of my big dreams is to travel around the country and go and transform existing music classrooms and educate the music teachers and give them curriculums and tools so you know that they say, something like a Hey, kids, on Monday when you guys come in, everything’s gonna be completely different. I got a surprise for you. And then the kids are like oh, I heard it was something with colors. [00:16:00] Oh, and stickers too. And stickers, oh my gosh. Kids lose their mind over stickers.

So this is just a marriage made in heaven. So that’s one of my big dreams. Come in and transform existing curriculums, existing classrooms, empower teachers and kids to make music together. Kids will be more attentive, kids will be able to make music together. Kids will have epiphanies. There’s the parallels with science. So as they’re learning music, they’re learning science as well. So there’s just a lot of possibilities there.

Jason Hsieh: Besides the product itself when I was visiting your website, I think you also provide some educations and other things for the teacher.

Can you also talk about the other things you do besides the musical sticker that you have?

Michael Wiley: We all know that the technological world is really wreaking havoc on our kids in a lot of ways because they’re learning soft. They’re not learning soft skills. And kids in order to learn, they have to touch, they have to be [00:17:00] tactile. When I was in China, I went over there and I ran a kindergarten department there at a bilingual school that was English immersive. And those kids were doing third grade math. I was so incredibly impressed with what they were doing over there. But there was a language barrier. And so when I brought out my guitar and with colors, it was just like they, they immediately understood I was using, these bells.

Jason Hsieh: Whoa. Okay. I like that.

Michael Wiley: And of course, kids see bells. They go absolutely bonkers. They’re like they have to touch them, and it just gets their attention immediately. You don’t even have to say, Hey, sit down. They all come and sit down on their own. They’re all so curious. And then you like mix them up. What’s this? Who can come and fix this? And they just immediately know, oh, they run up and they they try to put ’em in the order. And, so they’re about the they come up and I’ll say, okay, play them. And they’ll, oh, and the whole class will laugh and they’ll say, oh, who can fix it? And somebody will come up and they’ll be like, oh, okay. [00:18:00] Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And they’ll keep going. And with the system it’s great because it’s very simple. The kids love to touch things and interact with things. But I can also teach a lot of complex ideas about music interval. Melody making and what’s also interesting, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet, what do you notice about green? Green is the center of the rainbow. Green happens to be the center of music.

So that’s a tying in the whole mathematical, scientific side of things and why I believe that C is green and D is blue and G is red, and so on.

Jason Hsieh: I see. I, love that way. You must be a very entertaining teacher for sure.

Michael Wiley: They called me Mr. Chico over there and it was great. I’m really only four years old.

Jason Hsieh: How long have you, how long do you taught in China?

Michael Wiley: I taught there for a year with my wife. She ran the kindergarten or the preschool department. I ran the kindergarten department and we had teachers [00:19:00] underneath us. It was totally immersive and yeah I learned a lot. I learned a lot.

Jason Hsieh: Nice. Do you learn some Chinese while you’re there?

Michael Wiley: I can, my wife, it was interesting. My wife could understand, but I could speak. So we worked together well and, I think that’s pretty good match. So she would listen to somebody say, I’d say what did he say? Oh, he’s saying this and that. And I’d be like, oh, okay I know how to say that. And she didn’t know what to say. it seemed very constructive to how our brains were working.

Jason Hsieh: Oh, but your wife is American or she Chinese?

Michael Wiley: My wife is Japanese, she’s one quarter Japanese, actually half Japanese. My children are one quarter Japanese. And Han is from Osaka.

Jason Hsieh: Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Michael Wiley: And Grandpa Han passed away about six years ago.

Jason Hsieh: Okay.

Michael Wiley: And we put her into the neighborhood and it’s been really great. She’s a wonderful person.

Jason Hsieh: I see. So you also speak Japanese too, right? A little bit.

Michael Wiley: Oh [00:20:00] yeah. Not really. I not really, I just know a little bit things. I’m a parrot so I can imitate things very well, so yeah, like

Jason Hsieh: I think I mentioned to you before the interview, I speak Chinese and Japanese fluently as well English language.

Michael Wiley: Maybe you can teach me more than my,

Jason Hsieh: that’s very interesting background. Because of your experience in China. How you say, like the, of course, the education environment is very different and I’m also pretty sure the concept around musical education, I feel like a lot of the Asian culture doesn’t put music as like a emphasis is always math, science, English, of course, languages. But I feel like music is also like a, ah, you can learn some eng English music, but it’s not gonna make you any money, so let’s go study.

Michael Wiley: You’re gonna learn music. This is how you’re gonna do it. You’re gonna be the best. This is very serious. And the kids are under a lot of pressure. I had a kid over there that was having a really hard time relating with lots of the children. And of course all the children over there get [00:21:00] American names, so there’s happy and flower and Sunshine and Michael. So Michael, interestingly enough, was having a hard time interacting with the kids.

And I said, what’s wrong? Why aren’t you playing with the kids? And he says, I don’t wanna play with the kids, Mike. I said why what’s, going on at home? And he said, oh, my father says I have to go to Harvard, the kid’s in kindergarten. And his dad is telling so I wrote his parents and I told him, Hey man, you just gotta let this kid be a kid all in due time. And they were so grateful. And they still send me correspondence and I’ve watched Mike grow up into a young man. There are some cultural differences for sure. And they’re, ahead in a lot of ways, but behind in a lot of ways too. But music cuts through all of that.

Music is universal, color is universal, it’s a universal language. So I was able to connect with the kids like that very quickly and we would play games. I would make up things in the moment with the bells. I would take my guitar and I’d be [00:22:00] like, okay, I am gonna play it. No, and they would be looking. And you have to run to the part of the classroom where the bell was hidden. And I would make up things with them and that’s such an important part of teaching with music, with toys, really for sure. You have to get on their level.

Jason Hsieh: Yeah, Definitely. Very different. So Michael, thank you so much for the interview today. It is very insightful and thank you for sharing all the different aspect and also your experience overseas and te teaching kids in China for music. So for the audience that would like to learn a little bit more about what you do in your companies, where can they find you?

Michael Wiley: So you can find me at musicalcolors.com and you can learn a lot about everything that’s there. The stickers that you put on your guitar and, upgrading your instrument, I call it is really just the buy-in. Everything else on the website is geared to teach you once you have the stickers on your instrument. So there’s a section where you can go and learn all scales around the world. [00:23:00] There’s 60, 70 scales. They’re all different. All the chords. Right now they’re just all in c. But once you learn the patterns, you can move them anywhere on guitars and, but it’s growing and in the future wanna have an app and whatnot.

But there’s so many possibilities and also a lot of possibilities to work with other companies as well, who are already in this wheelhouse. Yeah, musical colors.com. Come and check me out and if you wanna learn a little bit about me and, my background or listen to some of the music that I’ve composed, the awards that I’ve had. I had a, I got a commission not to maybe a little over 10 years ago to write a Requiem. And I took me seven years to do it. And it’s for full orchestra. Grand choir mariachi and

Jason Hsieh: Oh, okay. Nice.

Michael Wiley: And solo and tenor. It’s basically a requiem for folks dying on the border. So socioeconomic athene society, it’s really just a, humanitarian statement. But you can find that at Michael Wiley or Michael John [00:24:00] Wiley dot com.

Jason Hsieh: I see. Thank you for sharing all that.

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